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this build looks intresting and my question is how well it would perform with all the gear from fos,pos, hor normal and HC aviable to me? without the icc set right now. also what glyphs and wepapon enchants should i use? 2x flametongue? or windufry flametongue
i think u can try to do spellhance, maybe u will go oom very quickly with low gs, but u can try to balance that with talent. i never play spellhance before i have all the bis item for it, so i cant be very usefull, u have to test i think, but i think it will be possible, probably the 2 spec does same damage, but again idk. For the weapon enhchant, u have to go with 2x FT. I use this 3 glyphs: flametongue weapon, fire nova, stormstrike.
Remember: Fire Nova will become one of your top priority spell with this spec.
Only on AoE fights. On single target Fire nova deals pathetic dmg, even as spellhance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziegmayer
Glyph of Lightning Shield yields more single target DPS than glyph of Fire nova.
I disagree. Fire Nova remains top priority with its 3sec cd, whenever there isnt a 5/5 maelstrom proc and if flameshock stormstrike is already on the target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black2ck
Would you like to give an armory to your shammy, maybe we can figure out why your Fire nova deals pathetic damage.
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreviuz
That's the spell priority as Spellhancer:
1) |Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt
2) |Flame Shock
3) |Stormstrike if debuff not active
4) |Lightning Shield if not active
5) |Fire Elemental Totem
6) |Magma Totem if not active
7) |Feral Spirit
8) |Shamanistic Rage
9) |Earth Shock
10) |Fire Nova
11) |Stormstrike
12) |Lava Lash
13) |Magma Totem
14) |Lightning Shield
In BiS gear Glyph of Lightning shield sims more single target DPS than Glyph of fire nova. It's simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dreviuz
Theorycrafting is more accurate than to determine BiS setups based on ingame experience because there is way too much rng involved in a real boss encounter.
So it's safe to say that you need EnhSim for fine tuning. To reach the same level of accuracy ingame you'd need your own raid of players who cover all raid buffs and who are willing to spend a few hours with you at the training dummy.
Whole post above is wrong.
1st of all, playing spellhance and having Fire nova on 10th place of priority is all you need to see and know it is wrong.
List provided is for regular enhance, not spellhance; taken from the enhance shammy guide linked on forums.
Also saying a spell with 6% to trigger 456 dmg ( 674 buffed with gylph and SS) deals more single target dmg than a spell on 3 sec cd and 1205 min dmg is simply *****ic (numbers from my tooltip ingame).
For spellhance, Maelstrom proc is prio 1, and Fire Nova is prio 2.
So:
Maelstrom
Fire Nova
Magma totem if not active
Sham rage
Stormstrike
Flame Shock if not active
Lightning shield if not active
Earth Shock
@Rosmarinus: I'm not a spellhance player so I'm probably wrong with my calculation, but what you see at the tooltip is base damage (increased by talents/glyphs) and you have to take into the account spell power, which as spellhance I believe you should have considerable amount. I can't find any reliable spell coef for Fire Nova nor Lightning Shield for 3.3.5 but short test on Blackrock suggest that Fire Nova has about 21% spell coef. Base damage is 893-997. Lightning Shield's coeff appears to be 33% with base damage of 380.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
Not sure what sp spellhance at OP's level have but for 1k sp it's 1155 avg damage for non-crit Fire Nova and 710 Lightning Shield proc. If we take into account Call of Flame, Imp. Shields and Glyph of Lightning Shield it's 1328 for Fire Nova and 979 for Lightning Shield. It is still calculation for 1k sp, with more sp Lightning Shield will be closer to Fire Nova in single non crit damage. Of course we also should take into account that Fire Nova can crit while Lightning Shield won't, but on the other hand there is also storm strike debuff (but I'm not sure it is always helpful to lose stormstrike's stack to Lightning Shield opposed to other nature damage sources that could strike harder).
Above calculation is simply made to show that you are comparing wrong numbers while also not taking into account other variables. It might be slightly wrong (hopefully didn't make any serious mistake).
Moreover what Black2ck said was that with BiS gear Glyph of Lightning Shield gives more dps on single target than Glyph of Fire Nova which does not imply that Fire Nova deals less or more damage than Lightning Shield. Single cast of Lightning Shield can give you 9 procs of it's damage when Fire Nova hits only once. So it's damage per spell cast is considerably higher for Lightning Shield. You also have to take into account that with Black2ck priority list they simply won't have enough free gcds to pop Fire Nova every 3 seconds.
P.S. @Rosmarinus: as a side note your priority list is not realistic because you need to have "Magma totem if not active" before "Fire Nova" - simply you won't be able to cast Fire Nova without fire totem up. I also believe that at any higher gear Earth Shock will hit harder than Fire Nova (as we are talking about single target damage) as it has higher spell coefficient than Fire Nova.
@Rosmarinus
Pretty much what Worstshamanwrld said.
Also I didn't post the spell priority of normal enh build. Take a second look.
@WorstShamanWrld
First I would like to correct my prio list because you are right, Magma totem needs to be above Fire Nova because it enables it, so thank you for noticing that.
Also I would like to move Lightning shield to be lower priority, below Earth Shock ( will be explained later).
Maelstrom
Magma totem if not active
Fire Nova
Sham rage
Stormstrike if debuff not active
Flame Shock if not active
Earth Shock
Lightning shield if not active
Stormstrike
@Black2ck
The list still has problems in prio. As a spellhance player for a whole t7 season, Fire Nova is top 3 dps skill in your rotation (other being FT procs and white melee dmg, all around 20% each, depending on fight) - As I'm not at my PC for a while I cannot share my dps stats to show how much % each skill deals on average for every naxx boss fight
Taking that in the consideration, I find issues not prioritising Fire Nova as much as possible - list posted does not reflect that. It puts Fire shock, Sham rage, and Earth shock above it.
Considering spell coeff for shocks is higher than Fire Nova, but it is cut in half because of cooldown (6sec vs 3 sec) - Fire Nova still deals better dps.
Now for the issue @Black2ck mentioned regarding Lightning Shield being more dps single target than Fire Nova:
@WorstShamanWrld you mentioned Ligthning Shield being more damage per cast than Fire Nova and THAT IS TRUE - but damage per cast =/= dps or dm per hit. But you cannot force Lightning Shield procs so even if you cast it, and it having more dmg per cast - it means nothing if you don't expend your charges faster than casting Fire Nova.
It can be easily proven mathematicaly, and for that I will list all spell coeffs I found, with min base dmg also listed.
Fire Nova - .214 coeff, min dmg 893
Lightning Shield - .33 coeff, min dmg 380
Flame shock - .214 for direct hit, .1 for dot, min dmg 500/834
Earth Shock - .385 coeff, min dmg 849
Modifier for Fire Nova is only Imp Fire Nova with 20%. (220% max)
Modifiers for Lightning shield are, 15% Imp Shields, 20% glyph, 10% T7 2p, 28% SS debuff (73% max)
Let say you have good gear and have 2000 sp. Also you somehow managed to lower your weapon speed to .5, giving you 4 attacks per second.
That means that Static Strike has a 24% to proc evey second, on average.
Adding Stormstrike, that is another 12% every 6 seconds
That means you proc LS only 3 times in 12 seconds! ( 24+24+24+24+24+36(ss)+24+24+24+24+24+36(ss)= 312%)
Sounds good so far.
Let us see the dmg for both spells:
LS > 380+(2000*.33)=1040, now add additional modifiers 73% extra dmg = 1799 dmg
FN > 893+(2000*.214)=1321, now add modifiers 20% extra dmg=1585 dmg
Awesome, LS has more dmg than Fire Nova, when accounting for all modifiers! Or does it?
Because it procced only 3 times in 12 seconds, it deals 5397 dmg in 12 secs (449,75 dps), but in the same time Fire Nova can be cast 4 times giving us 6340 dmg in 12 secs (528,3 dps), WITHOUT ACCOUNTING FOR CRITS.
So, even if you brought you wep speed to absurd levels, counted every single buff it can get, it still does less dps than Fire Nova, even when you ignore crits. And that is why it cannot give more single target dps than Fire Nova, ever.
Now, it makes a good case for using LS in your prio, and quite high in that regard but:
- it cannot crit, and shaman having 200% crit dmg this is really important negative
- to glyph LS, you need to choose to drop either extra SS debuff dmg, or 4% spell crit chance, both big NO NO
- situation presented is absurdly OP ( more realistic is having 1sec wep speeds, making only 3 procs in 24 seconds and with 63% inc dmg (no T7 2p buff), that is only 211 dps WITH LS GLYPH )
Few caveats:
There is a case to be made to use ultra fast weapons, mainly spell dagger/dagger and to focus only Mael procs and LS procs, but I never tested that and I don't think it would be better than either spellhance or regular enha
Now for Earth shock:
with similar min dmg, single cast deals more dmg than Fire Nova, but you can cast Fire Nova twice in the same period; when accounting for spell dmg -2k sp gives 1585 Fire Nova dmg and 2246 Earth Shock dmg with 5% dmg talent and 28% SS debuff. 528 dps vs 374 dps.
Even with T9 4p bonus and Reverberation talent, it only gives 495 dps for Earth shock.
Fire shock:
with 2k sp it gives, with 5% talent buff, 975 flat and 1085 dot dmg
Comparing it to Fire Nova, FS in 18 secs deals only 2060 dmg, while Fire Nova deals 1585 dmg every 3 secs.
Considering FS dps is only 114, that is the reason Fire Nova has higher prio and FS should only be cast or refreshed while Fire Nova is on cd/you are on the move.
Although it is also scaled with haste, haste cannot account for 5x dps increase.
I hope I've proven that for spellhance shaman, there is no more important spell than FIre Nova, after Maelstrom procs.
@Rosmarinus, as your post is quite extensive, I will quote you in parts to answer each point separately, I hope that it won't warp your answer.
It does not matter if your Fire Nova used every 3 seconds deals more or less DPS than any skill in the whole fight. You are putting cart before the horse - thinking in terms of DPS done by ability instead of how much damage you dealt taking into account how much time you spent to use it. As I am more of elemental player myself, I would use simple analogy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
My rare elemental shaman on Frostmourne deals on average 2.5k damage with non-crit Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst crits for about 7.6k. With no haste I can cast 4 Lightning Bolts in 8 seconds and only 1 Lava Burst. If my Lightning Bolt won't ever crit nor Lightning Overload ever procs in 8 seconds I will do 10k damage with Lightning Bolts giving me 1.25k DPS, but Lava Burst will have only 0.95k DPS. So does it mean that I shouldn't ever use Lava Burst because it has lower DPS? We both know that it isn't true, even if we will add to the calculation the obvious crits and Lightning Overload procs which will make a difference even bigger.
Going back from a trip to elemental-lands, you have to think of it terms of what gives you more damage in time you spent doing it. As all your abilities are instant cast and have the same GCD so it make things simpler. Let's assume GCD of 1 second. If I can use two abilities X and Y, where X deals 200 damage with only GCD and Y that deals 10k damage with 100 seconds, which should I use? Is it better to spend my GCD dealing 10k damage or dealing 200 damage? It does not matter if I won't be able to use Y for next 99 seconds, it hits harder, so I will use it even if it will net me only 100DPS instead of 200DPS of ability X.
To show it better, let's assume fight that will last 200 seconds (which is example that hurts Y ability).
Scenario 1) If I will use Y when I can and spam X in between, at the end I will use Y twice, and X 198 times giving me 20k damage done with Y and 39.6k damage done with X. It's 100DPS for Y and 198DPS for X. In total I dealt 59.6k damage with DPS of 298.
Scenario 2) X dealt more DPS than Y, so maybe I shouldn't use it, let's test it. I will use X whenever I can, so it will be X 200 times giving me 40k damage done and 200DPS.
In Scenario 1 I dealt significantly more damage (and so I made more DPS) even if I was using ability with inferior DPS.
Back to enh - if for GCD spent I will deal more damage (Lightning Shield) I should use it instead of ability that will deal less damage, but more DPS (Fire Nova). The same with both Shocks - if they hit harder, use them!
It is obviously oversimplified, without taking into account some dependencies (Fire Totem to use Fire Nova etc.) and situation where you may want to use lower damage ability, because you are wasting some resources not doing it (for example Maelstrom stack). Nonetheless I hope that I was able to get my point across.
I'm not sure if they are all additive. Most certainly Storm Strike debuff isn't additive with other 3 (Improved Shields, glyph and 2p T7) that increase damage from Lightning Shield, but Storm Strike's debuff increase damage received. At very least it is 85.6% damage modifier, but it could also be higher if damage increase from this three sources is multiplicative (I would guess so, but I simply don't now). It would put damage increase at a bit more than 94%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
I understand your example, but I think we misunderstood each other.
The point I was making was twofold - disproving:
1) that LS when glyphed (and with other bonuses) deals more single target dps than Fire Nova
2) that glyphing LS is way to go, instead of glyphing Fire Nova
I still use LS and benefit from it's dmg, it is just that the dmg it provides is so low that it does not warrant being higher in prio (because if you don't cast it for few rotations, you will not lose much dps)
Also, I am also not sure how SS debuff works, but I do not think it matters because if multiplicative, the increase of LS dmg is not significat, and I misscalculated Fire Nova damage because it actualy has 2 talents to increase it: Improved Fire Nova and Call of Flame ( for overall dmg increase of 35%). So in the end, it comes back to the same discrepancy of dmg done.
And I would note, although your example with that long lasting dot is a good one, it does not directly relate to LS due to its low proc nature. If LS had PPM or any other sure way to get its dmg consistently ( as you said 10k dmg in 100 sec ) it would be way better and higher in prio.
Because in the end, currently, LS provides only 5-7% of my overal dps, depending on fight.
Maybe it will increaase as I stack more haste and get T9 2p (extra 3% to Static Strike), but for now, getting LS from 6% average to 7.2% average dps with glyph is not a good option.
I believe that Black2ck made a point about Glyph of Lightning Shield being superior to Glyph of Fire Nova in BiS gear:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
And considering that OP was talking about FoS, PoS and HoR I would guess that he wasn't asking about BiS gear in t7 to which you refer in your posts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Black2ck
So as I see it you are refuting post about glyph choice for BiS gear in 3.3.5 content using you experience in 3.0 gear. Unless Black2ck was also talking about BiS gear for 3.0 and somehow no one tried to answer OP question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
Going forward:
Lets see how Lightning Shield affects your damage done. I will disregard Stormstrikes for simplicity sake. Each attack has 6% chance to proc Lightning Shield damage. So you could assume that in 100 auto attacks it will proc 6 times on average. Or you would need about 150 auto attacks to use all 9 stacks of Lightning Shield (on average again). So if your Lightning Shield will deal 1800 damage per proc you can assume that every 150 attacks you will deal additional 16200 damage. So it means that single cast of Lightning Shield will deal 16200 damage to your target (assuming you will cast with no stacks left). In other word, using 1 GCD to cast Lightning Shield you deal a lot more damage than using said GCD to cast Fire Nova on single target (1783 damage - increased number from your post after correction of adding Call of Flame to calculation). It does not matter if you have four auto attacks per second or one. It does not matter if you refresh Lightning Shield every 37.5 seconds (4 attacks per second) or every 150 second (1 attack per second). You spent 1 GCD to deal 16200 damage (unless target will die in less than 37.5/150seconds) which is more than 1783 damage you dealt with single GCD spent on Fire Nova. Even if you have 1 attack per second and target will die in 17 seconds you can assume that Lightning Shield will proc at least once dealing 1800 damage which is more than 1783 damage you will deal with Fire Nova.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
I would also like to go back to your previous post because I didn't address all my misgivings:
I believe that 10% spell coefficient for Flame Shock's DOT is for single tick not for all six. So Flame Shock would deal 975 + 2136 damage giving 3111 total damage, not 2060.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
Going forward: if you understood my example and you think I didn't do any mistake there I see no reason that Flame Shock and Earth Shock are lower on priority list than Fire Nova on single target:
You yourself said that they deal more damage just like ability Y dealt more damage than X (even if it didn't contribute to overall DPS as much).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosmarinus
The spell priority that I posted was simed with a t10 BiS geared spellhance.
It's possible that the spell priority is slightly different on a t7 spellhance.
To be honest, I don't understand the point of making own mathematical calculations (which obviously have several flaws as we can see in this conversation) when players with way more knowledge have already done that over 10 years ago and provided us theorycrafting tools such as RAWR and EnhSim.
There are so many factors that you have to keep in mind when you wanna calculate a BiS gear and a spell priority on your own. Just to name a few: all the raid buffs, glancing blows, misses, CCM, etc.
Why handicap yourself when we have theorycrafting tools that do everything for us?
@Rosmarinus
There are quite many flaws in your calculations.
My advice is to get Rawr and EnhSim. Then we have a better basis for this discussion and don't have to start from zero.