Regarding MS>OS and Item Reserve in Raids

I didn't play this game for almost 8 years and I decided to come back with Frostmourne release, but I noticed there are some annoying issues in Raiding that I don't remember happening in past.

1. MS>OS: ok, this is the rule, but what is happening is that there are many healers and tanks with full BiS pretending their main spec is Dps and so the leader allows them to roll for Dps, so I guess new rule became OS = MS .

I was used that the main spec is the one you bring in raid because it has the highest gear, but these people are clearly gearing up their off spec saying it's the main spec, and I think it's really not fair towards those Dps that are trying hard to complete their build.
There are literally tanks and healers taking Betrayer of Humanity or FFF trinket and yesterday there was even a tank with off spec healer, rolling for "main spec Dps", and again, for the leader it was ok

2. Item reserve: I understand the raid leader is an hard work and I "accept" the reserve on BoE items*, but actually people are reserving even non-BoE BiS items, which again, is not fair considering all 10/25 players contribute to take down a boss.
*Some raids like EOE 10 are completely useless because the BoE is the only item you need for your gear....

I don't know how do you call it, but these are clearly camouflaged forms of ninja looting which make raiding not funny at all and also a waste of time because a tank is gonna take your dps loot (yes they always win rolls too)

I would like to hear some opinions about this;)

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Originally Posted by Worradin

I don't know how do you call it, but these are clearly camouflaged forms of ninja looting which make raiding not funny at all and also a waste of time because a tank is gonna take your dps loot (yes they always win rolls too)

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No, they aren't, because you are made fully aware of the loot distribution rules beforehand. Unless the rules are changed mid-way, which is reportable, you accepted it (or didn't read/pay attention/asked questions to make sure, which has the same value as accepting).

If you disagree with the loot rules decided by who's organizing the Raid, don't join it. Start your own Raid with your own loot distribution rules instead if you like.

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Originally Posted by Worradin

I didn't play this game for almost 8 years and I decided to come back with Frostmourne release, but I noticed there are some annoying issues in Raiding that I don't remember happening in past.

1. MS>OS: ok, this is the rule, but what is happening is that there are many healers and tanks with full BiS pretending their main spec is Dps and so the leader allows them to roll for Dps, so I guess new rule became OS = MS .

I was used that the main spec is the one you bring in raid because it has the highest gear, but these people are clearly gearing up their off spec saying it's the main spec, and I think it's really not fair towards those Dps that are trying hard to complete their build.
There are literally tanks and healers taking Betrayer of Humanity or FFF trinket and yesterday there was even a tank with off spec healer, rolling for "main spec Dps", and again, for the leader it was ok

2. Item reserve: I understand the raid leader is an hard work and I "accept" the reserve on BoE items*, but actually people are reserving even non-BoE BiS items, which again, is not fair considering all 10/25 players contribute to take down a boss.
*Some raids like EOE 10 are completely useless because the BoE is the only item you need for your gear....

I don't know how do you call it, but these are clearly camouflaged forms of ninja looting which make raiding not funny at all and also a waste of time because a tank is gonna take your dps loot (yes they always win rolls too)

I would like to hear some opinions about this;)

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Why on earth would somebody, who needs absolutely nothing from the raid for his MS, still raid and contribute if he has nothing to gain? Raid profits from having a well geared healer / tank and he profits from rolling for his OS. It's as simple as that, nobody is responsible for you except you. I'm not going into a raid just to give you the chance to roll on something. Get this attitude out of your mind.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

No, they aren't, because you are made fully aware of the loot distribution rules beforehand. Unless the rules are changed mid-way, which is reportable, you accepted it (or didn't read/pay attention/asked questions to make sure, which has the same value as accepting).

If you disagree with the loot rules decided by who's organizing the Raid, don't join it. Start your own Raid with your own loot distribution rules instead if you like.

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Yes, indeed I defined it "camouflaged" form on ninja looting which is not reportable just because you are forced to accept it to enter any raid.
But if I join an HC dungeon as Dps and steal an item to a tank, this is reportable, despite is basically the exact same thing.

Regarding the other post, so when someone complete their BiS set, they keep joining raids just to gear up their off-spec (or main spec as they define it), not for the fun of raiding as a full bis, to help others players etc.. no no just for their off-spec that they will never use.
And when they complete also their off-spec what they do, start a new character?

I will keep seeing all this as selfish players that were lucky to reach full BiS and so they start stealing items to unlucky players that are still trying to complete their real main spec, this is the truth.

The only correct thing is that main spec is the one you bring in the raid, but I guess Wow players prefer the previous rules ahah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Worradin

Yes, indeed I defined it "camouflaged" form on ninja looting which is not reportable just because you are forced to accept it to enter any raid.
But if I join an HC dungeon as Dps and steal an item to a tank, this is reportable, despite is basically the exact same thing.

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No, it isn't the same thing. There's nothing camouflaged about being told "X, Y and Z are reserved, Character 1, 4, and 7 are rolling W as MS." You aren't forced to enter such Raid. You can look for another one or start your own. On the other hand, no one is forced to create a Raid and make their loot rules revolving around what you like.

Stealing an item on a dungeon is literally stealing, you even call it so. You didn't create a group with the specific and clearly declared intention of taking said item, allowing people to say "**** this, I'm out."

If you seriously can't see the difference, all that can be said is... oh well, things aren't going to go your way, no matter how you feel about it.

I know most of the stuff I wanted to say was already said but those tanks and healers that are taking loot not related to their main spec is understandable because they have nothing else to gain.MS changes are announced before the raid even begun and ppl are aware unless you did not paid attention.And people will choose to take them because they are needed to progress through the encounter

Seems to me you want to join a guild where your raid team doesnt change. Hardly any guild allows people to gear up their os over a raiders mainspec. In guilds you can grind every week and expect to get that item eventually. In pugs it's always a chance some stranger rolls over you every week

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Worradin

I didn't play this game for almost 8 years and I decided to come back with Frostmourne release, but I noticed there are some annoying issues in Raiding that I don't remember happening in past.

1. MS>OS: ok, this is the rule, but what is happening is that there are many healers and tanks with full BiS pretending their main spec is Dps and so the leader allows them to roll for Dps, so I guess new rule became OS = MS .

I was used that the main spec is the one you bring in raid because it has the highest gear, but these people are clearly gearing up their off spec saying it's the main spec, and I think it's really not fair towards those Dps that are trying hard to complete their build.
There are literally tanks and healers taking Betrayer of Humanity or FFF trinket and yesterday there was even a tank with off spec healer, rolling for "main spec Dps", and again, for the leader it was ok

2. Item reserve: I understand the raid leader is an hard work and I "accept" the reserve on BoE items*, but actually people are reserving even non-BoE BiS items, which again, is not fair considering all 10/25 players contribute to take down a boss.
*Some raids like EOE 10 are completely useless because the BoE is the only item you need for your gear....

I don't know how do you call it, but these are clearly camouflaged forms of ninja looting which make raiding not funny at all and also a waste of time because a tank is gonna take your dps loot (yes they always win rolls too)

I would like to hear some opinions about this;)

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Your logic is ok. The game itself by doing RDF shows the logic of the game. But on warmane, staff will tolerate what makes people happy and gives the server longevity. Also you are right about MS and OS, nobody can check what is his real MS or OS.

Example 1: Tank MS 6,3k gs joins a raid where he rolls for his OS heal 2k gs and takes the items from a heal MS. - this thing is allowed just to bring a "help" for others by having a 6,3k gs tank in raid, but, seriously @Obnoxious, i don't know if you play or not here even if you are moderator, but in reality, most of these kind of people are toxic, they leave the raid after they get their item or if the item doesn't drop.

Example 2: Tank MS 6,3k gs wwith 2k OS heal who wants to join a raid that requier 5,5k gs min, have to play some RDF HC and low raid to get as a MS heal in raid. - this will not happen because people are lazy, they want only X item and that's all. Nobody care about your time because it's just a game. Yes, is a game that require time and your time should worth something.

This is the main reason I stopped playing on warmane: the allowance of toxic and lazy players, because they are 95% of the server and usually, because of laziness they will donate some $$.

Overall, warmane is nice, there are nice guilds with decent people that can pass you a item if you want it so badly or help you in a raid to get some items.
But warmane isn't what it was at the beginning when people had a little of common sense. No, they play 5-10 years here and still they rush in everything they do and complains about how unfair is to play a OS from scratch because their time is valuable (but not yours).

It's always astounding how people who (I can only assume?) are too lazy to start a raid with their own "fair" loot rules will point fingers at everyone and everything around as "the problem"/toxic/lazy/ugly&stinky - even us, for allowing raid leaders to dictate the rules for their own raid groups, apparently.

The solution to this "unfairness" is in your hands: be the raid leader and set the loot rules you want. Stop expecting us to step in when people use loot rules that don't fit your best interest, especially when you join those raids in the first place. Be the change you want to see happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

It's always astounding how people who (I can only assume?) are too lazy to start a raid with their own "fair" loot rules will point fingers at everyone and everything around as "the problem"/toxic/lazy/ugly&stinky - even us, for allowing raid leaders to dictate the rules for their own raid groups, apparently.

The solution to this "unfairness" is in your hands: be the raid leader and set the loot rules you want. Stop expecting us to step in when people use loot rules that don't fit your best interest, especially when you join those raids in the first place. Be the change you want to see happen.

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if the staff let the people do what they want, everyone will take the short way and you can't deny it. Some things are so obvious on warmane that i surprise that staff still deny them.

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Originally Posted by saHasiD

if the staff let the people do what they want, everyone will take the short way and you can't deny it. Some things are so obvious on warmane that i surprise that staff still deny them.

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We let you start your own raid with your own loot rules.
But you're right, some things are indeed so obvious, like why would you stick to "wUrMaIn dO nUfFiN" instead.

This MS>OS wouldn't be an issue if you started to take lower geared people to raids. People are asking for 6K+ for ICC10N, so ofc they show up with high geared MS, because their OS is "too low". So they want to roll for OS, as their MS has 0, yes, ZERO, items they could get/use from 10N. Shocking, isn't it?

Look how any 5-5.5K GS doesn't switch MS rolls in ICC. I wonder why.

Reserves are legit, and anybody would want some compensation for managing 9-24 randoms. These 9-24 players usually needs to be told the fundamentals of raiding, their own classes, and items they should use.

The Problem is that people are to geedy