clarification on ninja looting in rdf

hi, first i want to make clear that this is not a report of some player.. i want a clarification on the rules of ninja looting, specifically what counts as ninja looting.

yesterday a 6.5k druid needed on bh and won. He clearly stated that he was needing it to sell it in ah. With the gold reward of 15-20k in the ah this is understandable that he has some considerable reward out it, even when he doesnt need the weapon from the bh quest.

My question is if this financial gain already counts as "need". According to ur policy this particular case is unspecified. Same with boe drops in general. I asked around and also experienced that theres often widespread understanding (or maybe presumption) that one could need on boe items without being labelled ninja, despite others needing that item for use in their gear.

I wish from u a definite answer on the market and handling of boe items and a more clearer definition of "need for an item". The ninja policy covers os need, but not the very ambiguous case of boe need for the market

Bh is a quest item, I doubt we can call it as ninjalooting for needing it.

that is beside the point. There are only 2 reasons to do this quest: for the weapon and for some completionist attempt to fill the achievments.. Neither of them apply here. Also i was talking about the handling of boe in general, this was just one example.

Technically, needing on bh when you have a 251+ weapon should still be considered ninjalooting. The examples in the rules are simply there for people who can't put 2 and 2 together. I don't need quest items specifically stated in the rules. If I have a better item equipped, I don't need on it. If it doesn't fit my spec, I don't need on it. The fact that greedy, spoiled people keep coming up with excuses and keep peddling nonsense is a separate problem.

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Originally Posted by shhnedo

Technically, needing on bh when you have a 251+ weapon should still be considered ninjalooting. The examples in the rules are simply there for people who can't put 2 and 2 together. I don't need quest items specifically stated in the rules. If I have a better item equipped, I don't need on it. If it doesn't fit my spec, I don't need on it. The fact that greedy, spoiled people keep coming up with excuses and keep peddling nonsense is a separate problem.

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Technically you're not needing a piece of gear which is the premise of ninja looting.

You don't need lock boxes to make your character stronger, you don't need books of glyph masteries to become stronger. You need gear and weapons to do that. You don't need primos either (if not reserved -> raid/free roll). Quest start items doesn't make you stronger, they give you a quest each. After you've done the quest, you may be compensated with gold, items and exp/rep if applicable. Your roll isn't about what lies beyond the horizon, it's about the item itself, which is simply put, a (glorified) quest item.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Technically you're not needing a piece of gear which is the premise of ninja looting.

You don't need lock boxes to make your character stronger, you don't need books of glyph masteries to become stronger. You need gear and weapons to do that. You don't need primos either (if not reserved -> raid/free roll). Quest start items doesn't make you stronger, they give you a quest each. After you've done the quest, you may be compensated with gold, items and exp/rep if applicable. Your roll isn't about what lies beyond the horizon, it's about the item itself, which is simply put, a (glorified) quest item.

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False! The premise of ninja looting is very clearly stated in the policies:
"Example of forbidden acts:
Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use."
The only difference here in case of BH is that the item gives access to the quest that rewards the item, but to treat this any different than the actual item is mental dissociation. The examples u give are a bit disingenuous, since nobody talked of lock boxes which may yield some random item or those books which should be needed by those who have an inscription prof, since they need it for their prof. And if u define "use" as financial gain through ah u can practically need on everything, since most of the stuff u can at least vendor. The difference between BH and lock boxes are that the BH quest yields a weapon potentially for every class and every spec of ur choice, while the lock box could give u **** u cant even use most of the time. It is very determined what item bh gives u, so its easy to check if someone who needed it can use it. In the case of the druid he even admitted that he was gonna sell it. I find u guilty of false equivalency fallacy

Problem with that is, druid can use the weapon. See, it doesn't say anything other than "use", so your own theory is mental dissociation, lets say.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Technically you're not needing a piece of gear which is the premise of ninja looting.

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I would disagree. The thing is, at least in our current case, we're talking about an item(quest item is still an item) which starts a quest chain that ends with receiving an entry level raid-quality weapon. It's not subject to interpretation of "what lies beyond getting this starting quest item", you have a finite amount of results from this quest chain:
https://i.imgur.com/hLilFu3.png
You won't magically get a different item that is better or worse than one of these. So they can therefor be considered as regular boe/bop dungeon loot items. It would be very easy to report and doesn't take any effort to review such report(in my mind at least). So when someone rolls Need on that item:
1. They clearly have not ever started the quest chain, otherwise it wouldn't show up for them on the group loot.
2. They either want an upgrade to their weapon OR they want to make money. If they already have an equal or higher quality item(make a screenshot) - very simple ninjalooting - offspec or ah sale. If they have some <251ilvl weapon - you ask *politely* if you could have the quest item or not and if you get denied - you pipe down and move on, as there would be NO CLEAR WAY OF PROVING why the player rolled Need on the quest item(a.k.a not enough evidence).

This is why I don't need the rules to state "quest items are also object of ninjalooting bla bla bla". It's a simple 2+2.

You guys can each have their own thoughts and interpretations (or head canons) about this, but the only ones whose answer mater are the GMs. This should be asked in an in-game ticket, as the chances of one of them coming to the Forum and noticing this thread to come answer here are minimal, their job is inside the game.

I will be very surprised if rolling NEED on hilt can actually bring any ninja bans.
There is just no framework. You can't prove that people roll on it for reward gear in the first place. There is no established time period where every player who wins a hilt must complete quest chain at least so far that hilt is no longer tradeable(because having lower weapon does not give free pass to cash in).
But who knows, maybe they have a bunch of buttered hilt operators on payroll these days. So do what Obnoxious said.

Ive seen it drop lot of times and nobody ever got mad and called someone ninja because of BH

Why would you even want such an overrated item. There are plenty weapons out there that can get you ready for ICC. Starting with FoS/PoS/HoR heroic and moving to Ony and ToC. And since we are talking about an item with its own dedicated achievement, I find it hard to believe that one would get punished for wanting to get an achievement. Me as a completionist would need on this without a second glance even if 6.4k gs as it would save me all that gold to get my last yournament achievement! And if that's the case for me, then it's the same for people that need it for gold, as you can't really monitor what one will do with the item once they get it.