Raid Rules and lack of common sense

Well, for those who know me, i've been part of this community for a long time now. I've seen my fair share of bull****, and some weird stuff come and go, and more often than not, i tend to remain silent. However i believe the next topic deserves some looking into...

Recently i've come across this forum thread: https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...28#post3187028 which discussed (since its now closed) a ninja loot report.

While ninja looting is a serious offense and should be punished, i believe there are a few things that must be a given in ANY raid, such as respect for other raid members AND THEIR TIME, knowledge of which items can your class roll, as well as sticking to a single main spec during the whole raid on what rolls reffer.

Having said so:

Dear warmane Staff, i have a few questions for you, taking into consideration what was discussed in that forum thread (https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...#post3187028):

1) which rules are actually on effect the moment we create a raid (AKA: we dont "create or enforce any rule").
2) if someone who goes AFK, do we get BANNED for not creating any rule that states: "AFK's might be object of kick, and therefore not elegible for loot"? What about if someone is being disrespectfull to the other raid members? what if they are harassing them? do i have to create rules for each and every scenario before being able to kick a douchebag from my raids, or else risk getting banned?
3) If no rule was "created", and since the following state was made by Obnoxious (warmane staff member):

"Originally Posted by reaza321
so if he tank and roll for tanking no matter he need or not he had to get for sure?
Exactly.

Unless the loot rules set at the start say something about only if it's a gear improvement or whatever, he's eligible to roll and win the item. There's no "implied" rule about only being able to win if it's better gear."


does that mean that i, as a fury warrior, who can equip CLOTH, LEATHER, MAIL AND PLATE piece of armor, as well as a large array of weapons, can roll for ALL OF THEM, REGARDLESS OF STATS, MY ACTUAL GEAR, THE NECCESITIES OF THE OTHER RAID MEMBERS AND THE ACTUAL BENEFITS I CAN GET FROM THE GEAR (you know, whats commonly refferred as USEFULNESS) and WIN IT with NO OPTION for the RAID LEADER, but to actually GIVE IT TO ME, or else risk getitng BANNED for NINJA LOOT?



In all seriousness, if you want to enforce "raiding rules", start by enforcing the most important one: TO HAVE COMMON SENSE!

Yours truly
A very concerned player

PD: dont close this thread out of shamefulness please, let the community hear what you have to say before actually deciding to banish this from existance

There since 2016, enough time for you to have read: https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...=1#post2651922

That thread states nothing of what i've asked:

1- it fails to state which rules are enforced the moment we choose to create a raid group, without applying any rules ourselves
2- while it DOES say "kicking players from raid for no reason" is considered ninja looting, it does NOT state which reasons are valid for kicking and which ones are NOT. for example: is wiping us a valid reason? is insulting raid members a valid reason?
3- it does not tackle the "i can use, even if it does not benefit me, hence i deserve it" issue

bear in mind i bring this up because of the statements made here: https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...#post3187028):

If it somehow isn't clear, those are the only things that are considered ninja by default.
If it isn't under the aptly named "What qualifies as ninja?" it... doesn't qualify as ninja by default.
Anything else is up to individual raid rules, and GM discretion if they believe a case falls under an exception or "glaringly obvious," as mentioned on the same post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

If it somehow isn't clear, those are the only things that are considered ninja by default.
If it isn't under the aptly named "What qualifies as ninja?" it... doesn't qualify as ninja by default.
Anything else is up to individual raid rules, and GM discretion if they believe a case falls under an exception or "glaringly obvious," as mentioned on the same post.

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If this is the case, may i ask why this guy https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...#post3187028): got banned for "ninja loot"?

-Player in question had better loot, hence it should NOT qualify as ninja loot
-Raid leader took an INDIVIDUAL choice (loot ban the player) for wiping them in several ocasions, hence it should NOT qualify as ninja loot
-raid leader did NOT give item to someone who couldnt use it (in fact, it was the next MS, the OTHER TANK), hence ir should NOT qualify as ninja loot.
-since loot-banning a player on a specific boss during a fight due to poor performance (which is NOT the same as changing the LOOT RULES) is not stated as a reason to ninja loot, it should NOT qualify as ninja loot.

may i ask again then, why was he banned?

dont get me wrong, i dont know the player, but it seriously concerns me the fact that a player got banned for ninja looter with no apparent reason or proof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakkhos16

-Player in question had better loot, hence it should NOT qualify as ninja loot

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Not sure what post your browser took you to saying anything like that or about "loot-banning."

Mine has a line stating "- Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win, unless it's 2nd highest roll when winner had no use for the item (rogue rolling on caster trinket)."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakkhos16

In all seriousness, if you want to enforce "raiding rules", start by enforcing the most important one: TO HAVE COMMON SENSE!

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To my knowledge, the Game Masters tend to enforce what would be common sense. But it is up to their discretion as whether the offense was worth a ban or not, or whether the situation was straightforward enough or not. The latter bit is important because not every player who takes an item had the intent of being a "ninja".

An example exception case (one that has actually happened): A level 40 rogue rolling on a blue dagger that had spellpower on it because it had higher weapon damage than the dagger he had.
The important factor here is in plausible deniability. It's likely he did think it was an upgrade for him, and it's also very possible that at level 40, he didn't understand enough about the game to have known better than to roll on the item.

In any case, none of the GMs are min/max bis-list followers/creators like many parts of the community are, and they may be susceptible to make mistakes as any human would. Which is precisely why the appeal system exists.
As for the appeal denial mentioned in the aforementioned thread, I'll get to that in a moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakkhos16

-Player in question had better loot, hence it should NOT qualify as ninja loot

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This is not the case. The normal RS boots do have a lower ilvl, but itemization is a factor.
First, the RS boots have two blue sockets and a stamina socket bonus. The VDW boots have a yellow and a blue socket instead. Which means you either need to use a hybrid gem to get the socket bonus, or use to pure stamina gems and miss out on the socket bonus. This is a stamina loss.
Secondly, expertise is not a stat that is super important outside of specific boss fights that have parry haste mechanics. Whereas the dodge/parry stats always have some sort of value. Tank stats, due to the ever-changing nature of how boss fights work, do not always have clear-cut BIS options.
Many people who may say otherwise due to how the PUG environment functions, and that it's just better to have things work this way for the sake of fairness in loot distribution, but that is now how tank stats work unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakkhos16

-Raid leader took an INDIVIDUAL choice (loot ban the player) for wiping them in several ocasions, hence it should NOT qualify as ninja loot

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This may be the point of contention here. It is possible that our ban appeal support misunderstood the case of what a loot-ban means. But I don't know this, because I haven't heard the other side of the story, I haven't seen the screenshots, and I haven't seen the chat logs. So it's not something I can personally verify. Without that capacity, it's not easy to determine if it was handled in a fair and unbiased fashion. Especially if the loot-ban was called out in the middle of the boss fight, which leads me to my next point;

What would be the purpose of bothering to help finish clearing the RS raid if the player in question is loot-banned from the only thing that drops any loot in the raid? Why wouldn't that person just leave the moment the loot-ban was issued? What was preventing him from leaving? Perhaps he was hoping that if he stayed and helped to finish the boss-fight in good faith, that his ability to roll would be restored? Perhaps the leader led him to believe that was the case and didn't follow-through?
... Or maybe he just isn't very good at the game, or know much about these fights. He may still be on his journey to become a better player, and that's not entirely his fault. Especially if he isn't being provided with proper guidance and/or coordination.

These are lots of questions we can only leave up to speculation. I didn't receive the report from the other player. I didn't see any proof he provided. I didn't see anything provided by the accused that would exonerate him either. Neither you, nor I, are the ones personally handling this case. So we're not a part of that loop. It's not up to us to determine what the fair course of action here is due to the absence of information. This is one of several reasons that we do not discuss bans or reports publicly on our forum or elsewhere.

I'll be closing this thread now, as for the things I explained above. If you have further questions or concerns, feel free to send me a message so we can talk about it in private.

There's one thing out of the verbose version above of what had already been paraphrased from the rules regarding this - that there is GMs discretion if they believe a case falls under an exception or is "glaringly obvious" - that I'll explore.

Quote:

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This may be the point of contention here. It is possible that our ban appeal support misunderstood the case of what a loot-ban means.

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Going back to the post on what is ninja looting and how it should be reported, there is an absence of "not loot-banned, but not given loot you won" or "Screenshot #: shows you not being declared loot-banned when the item was distributed," and I can't see why that would be something that was just forgotten or skipped.

Loot rules are meant to inform every player taking part in a raid of anything that will affect the basest "you roll highest, you get the item" condition. Items that are reserved, any sort of priority going to be used (class x before class y, guild members first, iLevel update or not, etc.) and so on. There being conditions that would make someone "loot-banned" fits in the exact same mold - it's a rule that can make someone not receive an item, despite rolling highest.

So, while applying a "loot-ban" on someone might be "an INDIVIDUAL choice," such choice will still be categorized as stealing loot if players weren't informed they would be subject to such scrutiny. This is even more so important, as if that's stated in the loot rules for the raid GMs and Support are able to require extra evidence or investigate further regarding that. Without something like that being explicit, any raid leader wanting to "punish" someone due to some petty reason could deny them any and all items, making up some "loot-ban condition" excuse on the spot.