[Lordaeron] Nerf ToC5, FoS, PoS and HoR gear ilvl

The gear in the later dungeons invalidates the pre ICC raids. Nerfing it would make them relevant again. I want to be able to do Ulduar for progression reasons and not feel like I'm wasting my time. And I don't want to be forced into the pacing/fast leveling of the seasonal realm. On a perpetual realm, all of the best content should be perpetually relevant instead of only a fraction of it.

The gear made sense in the live game 15 years ago. I don't think it makes sense on a version of the game running the same patch for years and years. I understand some people want more freedom in the raids they can do upon hitting 80, so maybe some catchup mechanics are necessary, but surely there's a middle ground which doesn't invalidate the previous raid tiers completely.

Building on this - rather than nerf the old content, maybe add a difficulty mode that's tuned to the same ilvl as ICC? Or like, something that's post-ICC in terms of ilvl that opens up all the raid content to groups that are post ICC, and offers ilvl rewards of similar quality to Ruby Sanctum?

I feel like having some viable post ICC options using that same content would work better than nerfing the existing stuff, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by LastSeraph

Building on this - rather than nerf the old content, maybe add a difficulty mode that's tuned to the same ilvl as ICC? Or like, something that's post-ICC in terms of ilvl that opens up all the raid content to groups that are post ICC, and offers ilvl rewards of similar quality to Ruby Sanctum?

I feel like having some viable post ICC options using that same content would work better than nerfing the existing stuff, but that's just me.

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That does sound cool, but it seems like more of a technical challenge. And there's no telling what balance difficulties might arise from higher level items. The benefit of the nerf is that it's easy.

Do you have any better reasons to back this suggestion? You wanting to do old content and for it to "feel" relevant isn't justification for changing the experience of thousands of players who might not care for the same as you, by far.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Do you have any better reasons to back this suggestion? You wanting to do old content and for it to "feel" relevant isn't justification for changing the experience of thousands of players who might not care for the same as you, by far.

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It's not just about the feeling. Gear progression incentives make content more meaningful, objectively. You trade away the relevance of four dungeons in exchange for seven raids.

There's also the arc of progression. Having to progress through the raids makes the arc longer, more substantial, more meaningful. It's exactly the same as having 1x XP rates when leveling. Having the dungeon catchup gear is just like having boosted XP, but for endgame.

So seven raids and more substance in the endgame. That's a good deal for everyone. It's perfectly in line with the philosophy of Lordaeron, and the players will come to appreciate it even if it takes some getting used to.

I doubt people would flood into Ulduar even if you nerfed Frozen Halls dungeon drops. Lordaeron already being a "hardmode" would only make Ulduar PUG's unbearable due to its size, unfamiliar tactics, and being a raid that requires gathering raid members to do it. All aspects that Frozen Halls dungeons don't simply put have. Not sure if guilds would be interested of making Ulduar gearing runs.. FH dungeons are easy to get to, doesn't require lengthy time investments, quick in and out, repeatable if normal difficulty. Would you go to Ulduar to have minor up- or sidegrades, considering how much work it is compared to alternatives?

At best, it would drive people mainly to FH dungeons before going to ToC raids. Ulduar would once again, be left in the shadows. So, no major changes would happen in gearing progress.

You can enable x1 leveling in Onyxia, and raid Ulduar how it's supposed to be raided in its glory when it eventually comes. Especially when you seem to value Ulduar quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Tetrahedronbrah

It's not just about the feeling. Gear progression incentives make content more meaningful, objectively. You trade away the relevance of four dungeons in exchange for seven raids.

There's also the arc of progression. Having to progress through the raids makes the arc longer, more substantial, more meaningful. It's exactly the same as having 1x XP rates when leveling. Having the dungeon catchup gear is just like having boosted XP, but for endgame.

So seven raids and more substance in the endgame. That's a good deal for everyone. It's perfectly in line with the philosophy of Lordaeron, and the players will come to appreciate it even if it takes some getting used to.

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You wrote a lot, but in essence just doubled down on wanting to change the global gear progression of a server to suit what you'd like to happen. Anyone who thinks like you is free to do those seven raids and avoid those four dungeons, but I'm going to take a risk here and guess you haven't found any massive mob of players wanting to do that with you, have you? It's even worse when you try to talk for the rest of the population and say they will "get used to" this sort of custom content that would force people into old Raids with PuG groups for part of their gearing.

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Originally Posted by Tetrahedronbrah

It's not just about the feeling. Gear progression incentives make content more meaningful, objectively. You trade away the relevance of four dungeons in exchange for seven raids.

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Lordaeron already progressed. You are just late to the party. Wait a while and join Onyxia.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

You wrote a lot, but in essence just doubled down on wanting to change the global progression of a server to suit what you'd like to happen. Anyone who thinks like you is free to do those seven raids and avoid those four dungeons, but I'm going to take a risk here and guess you haven't found any massive mob of players wanting to do that with you, have you? It's even worse when you try to talk for the rest of the population and say they will "get used to" this sort of custom content that would force people into old Raids with PuG groups.

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Players are pragmatic, so of course they will choose efficiency 9 times out of 10 even if it leads to less fun in the long term. This is a well known game design problem. The answer is to encourage them into the best experience. Otherwise why not put in level boosts and raid finder? Of course the players would use those if they were available, but that doesn't make the game more fun, as evidenced by retail.

You seem to think I'm only asking for what I want, but I'm not. I'm asking for the best version of the game. That's what everyone wants even if we disagree about how to get there.

The magic of Lordearon is that it is fun perpetually. You can go from lvl 1 all the way to ICC and then you can do it again 6 months later, whenever you want. And it works, it's fun and people are around you the whole way. But the raids, some of the best content, are missing from that experience.

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Originally Posted by Tetrahedronbrah

You seem to think I'm only asking for what I want, but I'm not. I'm asking for the best version of the game.

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No, you seem to think that you know what's "the best version of the game" for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Tetrahedronbrah

That's what everyone wants even if we disagree about how to get there.

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And what about the people who want to progress like it's supposed to happen at this point in the expansion? Too bad for them?

No, this is a massive custom change that would affect anyone gearing up, forcing them into stuff they might not want and shouldn't have to go through in the expansion they are playing. You're free to do old raids, free to create a guild of players who only gear up this way, free to try to convince other players to do things your way, but you failed to provide any valid justification for a custom change of this sort and magnitude, with the impact it would have on everyone who disagrees with you and came to play 3.3.5 WotLK in its regular gearing process.