LoD Guilds Exploits

To very shortly reiterate, it is of our strong believe that this is a different case. No matter how much you wish to paint the players as 'smart' 'cunning', it's still very easy to use a spell you have as a class.

Just because a certain spell is not in often use, it does not mean someone can't accidentally press a keybind or even press a keybind a dozen times and do something. There's a core different between using a hacking program and simply using the abilities your class has.

With the idea of how easy this can happen and if we were to set up some form of a logging system that alarms us every time it's being used on Lich King we would swiftly and without any doubt ban the 90% of the raiding scene in less than a week.

It's the same thing as transmog, it's unfair and not nice but it can happen accidentally. We can't start banning everyone simple because they happen to have that on their characters.

We as staff can't differentiate if it was used intentionally or not and understand that it can be used accidentally, therefore we refrain from banning the involved. If it was evidence where the raid leader instructed a player to do so and other players in the raid encouraged it we would see it with different eyes.

With the things as they are, we feel that issuing a ban is unfair, unjust and not honourable from our side.

You're still and many others are still not understanding the gravity of the situation and not understanding the idea between incidental and intentional exploit. Warrior exploits are intentional, you have to work your way around to have them. Same thing with a lot of things, you have to put effort into getting them done and there's a clear line between wanting to do it or not.

We can't assume this was intentional because it's so easy to do. We can't assume the player is a tyrannical, evil, cunning figure because then we wouldn't be fair. We assume everyone is innocent and work from that point. If you continue comparing this to further complicated exploits, hacking programs and grave issues that are not removed permanently from the servers only because of staff's good will and hope and belief in human nature then we have nothing further to discuss.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

Keep in mind that some of these abilities that are being used shouldn't even be on a player's bar in a PvE setting. Granted ignorance is a common defense in this regard. However since when has ignorance of rules or laws been an excuse to go against them even if it was accidental? Obviously I'm not saying be ruthless and ban over an accidental exploit that has no effect or impact on a raid boss what so ever but hopefully you see our side of it as well in this regard to some extent (even if you don't completely agree with it).

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Writing this again.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

We can't assume this was intentional because it's so easy to do. We can't assume the player is a tyrannical, evil, cunning figure because then we wouldn't be fair. We assume everyone is innocent and work from that point. If you continue comparing this to further complicated exploits, hacking programs and grave issues that are not removed permanently from the servers only because of staff's good will and hope and belief in human nature then we have nothing further to discuss.

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Also, since when are we to assume what a player should have on their bars or not? Would that be difference between the actual ban or not? No.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

That still doesn't mean new bugs or exploits won't be discovered. The overall point of this thread which seems to have gone over a lot of people's head is that our concern is over the player's complete lack of respect/fear in regards to rules about cheating and exploiting.

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The overall point of my replies, comparisons and examples went over everyone's head. The key point is that we will not ban players for issues that can arise accidentally and especially when there's no evidence that one such thing was done intentionally.

Speaking about honour and taking responsibility is important however we did not take responsibility for cheaters or exploiters. We merely took responsibility for not fixing it sooner. Exploiters will still get banned and will always be banned however when an issue like this which can be abused very simply and we cannot differentiate if the player was innocent or not, we have to refrain from banning. It's that simple. Going to write this again.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

We can't assume the player is a tyrannical, evil, cunning figure because then we wouldn't be fair. We assume everyone is innocent and work from that point.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

To very shortly reiterate, it is of our strong believe that this is a different case. No matter how much you wish to paint the players as 'smart' 'cunning', it's still very easy to use a spell you have as a class.

Just because a certain spell is not in often use, it does not mean someone can't accidentally press a keybind or even press a keybind a dozen times and do something. There's a core different between using a hacking program and simply using the abilities your class has.

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I'm not going to read even further. Your statement that is something that can be pressed without wanting to (I even have logs of the ammount of times it was pressed) is a statement that sounds like it came from a twisted reality.

I guess that's your position - Good. I'll wait for some more people to reply to you and tell you the same story over and over again. Maybe like that you'll open your horizons.

Pressing a key 26 times doesn't seem like an accident to me. Maybe if I go outside and trigger a gun - Kill an innocent - I might convince people that I fat fingered it.

Also, thanks for ignoring several points that I pointed out in my previous reply. I appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

To very shortly reiterate, it is of our strong believe that this is a different case. No matter how much you wish to paint the players as 'smart' 'cunning', it's still very easy to use a spell you have as a class.

Just because a certain spell is not in often use, it does not mean someone can't accidentally press a keybind or even press a keybind a dozen times and do something. There's a core different between using a hacking program and simply using the abilities your class has.

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Ay LMAO. Hey. Do you even play this game?

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Originally Posted by magaginho

Pressing a key 26 times doesn't seem like an accident to me. Maybe if I go outside and trigger a gun - Kill an innocent - I might convince people that I fat fingered it.

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Maybe if I do it 26 times, it will still be an accident. Right? Police get away from me, it was a ****ing accident, what's your problem.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

With the idea of how easy this can happen and if we were to set up some form of a logging system that alarms us every time it's being used on Lich King we would swiftly and without any doubt ban the 90% of the raiding scene in less than a week.

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Are you implying that 90% of the raiding scene is using JoJ on LK and you're not doing anything about it? Okey.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

This case is very similar to this one, there's some foul play but we can't determine if it was intentional or accidental and we can't furthermore attain complete evidence. This is different than reports where we have clear evidence that a player used third-party programs to lower his global cooldown and we can see clear evidence that the raid was aware of it and instances where the raid leader would instruct players in the raid to do exploits. It's very different.

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I mean that would make perfect sense, if there weren't casual players who are more informed than that. And this isn't even touching on those guilds who advertise their kills on the forums as illegitimate.

So you're saying i can exploit and get shadowmourne instead of using Burger King gift cards?

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Originally Posted by Proterean

Just because a certain spell is not in often use, it does not mean someone can't accidentally press a keybind or even press a keybind a dozen times and do something. There's a core different between using a hacking program and simply using the abilities your class has.

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I'm not disputing this and I never was. My dispute is over the lack of consistency in which these bans are carried out.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

With the idea of how easy this can happen and if we were to set up some form of a logging system that alarms us every time it's being used on Lich King we would swiftly and without any doubt ban the 90% of the raiding scene in less than a week.

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I highly doubt you would ban 90% of the raiding scene. Once the first few bans are issued I think players would suddenly realize they need to either stop or make sure they're aware of what is or isn't an exploit and understand the difference between intentional and accidental.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

It's the same thing as transmog, it's unfair and not nice but it can happen accidentally. We can't start banning everyone simple because they happen to have that on their characters.

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I don't know why you're repeating this when I already acknowledge that I don't expect ruthless bans over something that has no effect or impact on a raid boss.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

We as staff can't differentiate if it was used intentionally or not and understand that it can be used accidentally, therefore we refrain from banning the involved. If it was evidence where the raid leader instructed a player to do so and other players in the raid encouraged it we would see it with different eyes.

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So all I have to do is claim ignorance to avoid a ban then is basically what you're saying here. Players caught on to this before I did no doubt, you simply clarified it. Here in lays my point about how ignorance of rules or law shouldn't be an excuse for not taking action when what they're doing does impact a raid boss.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

Also, since when are we to assume what a player should have on their bars or not? Would that be difference between the actual ban or not? No.

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Knowledge of the game, class, current bugs solves this problem even if it means having to do a little in house collaboration to determine it.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

The overall point of my replies, comparisons and examples went over everyone's head. The key point is that we will not ban players for issues that can arise accidentally and especially when there's no evidence that one such thing was done intentionally.

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With all due respect, I believe it was our points that went over your head. This thread despite all the mixed replies is our concern over action, not to try and get an entire guild banned.

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Originally Posted by Proterean

we did not take responsibility for cheaters or exploiters. We merely took responsibility for not fixing it sooner. Exploiters will still get banned and will always be banned however when an issue like this which can be abused very simply and we cannot differentiate if the player was innocent or not, we have to refrain from banning.

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Your simplicity is exactly the excuse that players use to continue taking advantage of this. Not taking responsibility going forward gives free will to the players to continue doing it. All they have to do is claim ignorance. I find it unfair to blame the state of the server on the dev team when most of their work has been on the Lordaeron core.

That being said, although the problems are in the script / content itself, that doesn't mean action shouldn't be taken to prevent and keep players aware of what is and isn't okay to do.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

That being said, although the problems are in the script / content itself, that doesn't mean action shouldn't be taken to prevent and keep players aware of what is and isn't okay to do.

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And who's deciding which bug is okay and which is not?

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Originally Posted by Bensten

And who's deciding which bug is okay and which is not?

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A bug that you can't control through your physical control = Bug that is okay
A bug that you can force to happen in order to finish a fight when you don't need to reproduce it and changes the whole mechanic of the fight = Not okay.

Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by magaginho

A bug that you can't control through your physical control = Bug that is okay
A bug that you can force to happen in order to finish a fight when you don't need to reproduce it = Not okay.

Simple as that.

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So, stacking tombs on Sindra is worth a raidwide ban?

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Originally Posted by Bensten

So, stacking tombs on Sindra is worth a raidwide ban?

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You don't have the need to do it do you? We're also not stating that once you do that you should get a raidwide ban are we? Did Sindragosa multiple times last week with the tombs not stacked - No problems.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

So, stacking tombs on Sindra is worth a raidwide ban?

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With tombs specifically they just don't have the aoe damage mechanic at all, and then los isn't accurate so stacking the tombs is actually a beneficial way to avoid an existing and unintended bug. However, I think you stacking on PP does warrant punishment as at least on normal it is doable the correct way. Notice how I turned this around on you?

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Originally Posted by Bensten

And who's deciding which bug is okay and which is not?

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An excellent question to which I've already addressed to the head GM in one of my previous posts.

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

Further, who from your team keeps track of new recent bug changes to determine what is and isn't an exploit? Is this information communicated to your staff so that they're aware? I ask this question because miscommunication seems to be causing them to bounce players back and forth between reporting a problem on the forums or a ticket in game.

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Originally Posted by Sixtyninee

With tombs specifically they just don't have the aoe damage mechanic at all, and then los isn't accurate so stacking the tombs is actually a beneficial way to avoid an existing and unintended bug. However, I think you stacking on PP does warrant punishment as at least on normal it is doable the correct way. Notice how I turned this around on you?

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This makes absolutely no sense. There is no difference between abusing PP and abusing Tombs. Anoher example would be spore stacking on Fester. If you decide to punish one thing, you have to punish all of them.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

This makes absolutely no sense. There is no difference between abusing PP and abusing Tombs. Anoher example would be spore stacking on Fester. If you decide to punish one thing, you have to punish all of them.

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Well you better start running from Blood Beasts and never do more than a single 10 and 25 man raid weekly, also don't forget to fight the bugs before PP and those spiders before Sindy. Oh wait, those are missing. *cough*

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Originally Posted by Sixtyninee

Well you better start running from Blood Beasts and never do more than a single 10 and 25 man raid weekly, also don't forget to fight the bugs before PP and those spiders before Sindy. Oh wait, those are missing. *cough*

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Right, because that's totally the same. All I mentioned is doable almost retail like. Not doing it is an intentional abuse of a bug/exploit and should be dealed with the same way you deal with JoJ.

You demanded consistency and yet you raise certain bugs above others with no logical explanation beside how it suites your personal playstyle. And just to be clear: Idc about how JoJ or any other bug is treated. Ban people for 90days if you can guarantee to ban everyone who's abusing it. But do it with every exploit.