Lordaeron Frost DK Pre-Raid BiS

So i read the other post about FDK's and it's 100% correct for ICC or when you get gear. My list has agi on it.. you cant get a dps weapon w/o agi on it. On Lord we only have T7.5 unlocked and if you gem/gear for ARP you lose way too much STR for it to be valid. Your gear list going over everything is FAR more of a pain to actually complete to even attempt arp as a FDK. Haste isnt great RIGHT NOW in the gear that's available to us it's under Crit since unbuffed you're about 19% or so and raidbuffed you're about 26%. 9% Crit from Subversion is worth more than the BCB right now until you're gearing up. The point of this list is the math on Hit/EXP is there for those trying to reach it. It's optimal to go for it, but if you're at 20exp and slotting in more STR then you can most likely get away with it. Also i referenced his yellows not being hit capped on his BiS list... that didnt even include a possible spell hit which this list will get you very close to and if you're ally with Draenei hit it'll get you to 14% and in raids 17% from moonkin/SP's. IF you can avoid it Agi conversion is something you want to avoid, though it's not always the case. And ty for the Agi-Crit. I actually thought Paladins were higher, but I'm able to be wrong here. At .62 crit conversion Agility is still pretty low and if it can be avoided then it should be. Impossible to avoid it on 1handers though. If you can avoid it for STR then it's optimal since you get increases to STR and also scalings due to buffs like Blessing of Kings making agi armor with ATP usually under a Plate STR armor.

Gemming for arp is bad, agreed. This is because at low arp, str>arp. However, on gear, str and arp do not compete. Arp>crit or haste. Arp exists on more than just agility items.

Haste isn't a terrible stat, but it does happen to be your worst secondary stat option. It's probably more valuable the less of it you have, tbh, for more KM procs (meaning getting more devalues it once the procs are frequent enough for your abilities).

Subversion is always worth more than BCB, because it should always be the first talent you spec into (nice crit + threat reduction which you'll need often). BCB should be the 2nd talent you go for the moment you have any decent amount of arp. Saying no to it "because it does little damage" is silly. The number might not appear to be much on your damage meter, but that's not the same as comparing it to other talents. Subversion doesn't affect your autos, also. Calculating it into an overall cap is unfair to autos.

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Originally Posted by Doublespoons

Also your BiS isnt even hit capped w/o your Nerves of Cold Steel talent.

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I have 13% Spell hit rating with my current gear, I'm close enough to physically hit cap to not matter, taking NoCS is a must anyway, it's not like you got anywhere else to put them talent points...

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Originally Posted by Kemii

I have 13% Spell hit rating with my current gear, I'm close enough to physically hit cap to not matter, taking NoCS is a must anyway, it's not like you got anywhere else to put them talent points...

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Never hinted or said anything about NoCS it's 100% mandatory there's no reason to not get it. And yes you're close to cap, but im saying my list is 100% capped and optimized. You made a comment about my neck choice which makes no sense, it's basically the same thing as the badge neck. Agi badge neck is like .5 more crit with 10AP lossed since 47str on my neck is modified by 7% from Frost/Unholy talents + Blessing of Kings = 10% which the 7% is multiplied after Blessing meaning its close to 18% giving you about 8 more STR on that necklace when buffed and giving 10AP. They're basically the same thing.

Also, I completely agree with Lynea. Haste is alot more useful with ARP and since it's annoying to get enough ARP to really matter I valued the haste under crit in gearing stages is all. BCB is huge with ARP/Haste but we wont see those numbers till start of ToC or so maybe even ICC i have to look at ToC's loot again.

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Originally Posted by Lynea

\BCB should be the 2nd talent you go for the moment you have any decent amount of arp. Saying no to it "because it does little damage" is silly. The number might not appear to be much on your damage meter, but that's not the same as comparing it to other talents. Subversion doesn't affect your autos, also. Calculating it into an overall cap is unfair to autos.

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I agree on all previous points you made. Idk if this one in particular is directed solely towards lordaeron as a progression realm, but on rag/dw the 3 points you'll put into bcb will not be as good an investment as say putting those points into subversion (those r basically the only 2 debatable talents end-game wise).

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

I agree on all previous points you made. Idk if this one in particular is directed solely towards lordaeron as a progression realm, but on rag/dw the 3 points you'll put into bcb will not be as good an investment as say putting those points into subversion (those r basically the only 2 debatable talents end-game wise).

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With more haste/arp it becomes mroe than 9% crit, though if its not working properly on the private realm then that could be the issue. On retail BCB was amazing.

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Originally Posted by Doublespoons

With more haste/arp it becomes mroe than 9% crit, though if its not working properly on the private realm then that could be the issue. On retail BCB was amazing.

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Dunno if something is working badly with it, but on deathwing I've tried doing a 3/52/16 spec and a 53/18 spec and both times BCB was qutie unimpressive with it's average of 80k-100k per bossfight (i'm actually quite inflating the numbers here).

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

Dunno if something is working badly with it, but on deathwing I've tried doing a 3/52/16 spec and a 53/18 spec and both times BCB was qutie unimpressive with it's average of 80k-100k per bossfight (i'm actually quite inflating the numbers here).

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If it's put into % it's easier to tell what you mean. Right now on Lord in current gear BCB is 3-4% of my damage where as it being about 7% or a little higher in ICC with ARP/Haste. Subversion crit is more useful for us in Naxx gear till we start getting more crit/haste/arp then it completely changes and you should see your 7% which is optimal.

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

I agree on all previous points you made. Idk if this one in particular is directed solely towards lordaeron as a progression realm, but on rag/dw the 3 points you'll put into bcb will not be as good an investment as say putting those points into subversion (those r basically the only 2 debatable talents end-game wise).

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Subversion is the weakest talent available DPS-wise, but the threat reduction can be really good if you're extremely geared compared to your tanks. Otherwise, BCB is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Doublespoons

With more haste/arp it becomes mroe than 9% crit, though if its not working properly on the private realm then that could be the issue. On retail BCB was amazing.

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^ That.

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

Dunno if something is working badly with it, but on deathwing I've tried doing a 3/52/16 spec and a 53/18 spec and both times BCB was qutie unimpressive with it's average of 80k-100k per bossfight (i'm actually quite inflating the numbers here).

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You say BCB is unimpressive (maybe it's bugged for a low proc rate or something, I don't know), but what sort of figures do you have for Subversion? Subversion is a really weak talent DPS-wise.

I've decided to test this for you guys that way we had screen shots so we can put this in numbers. I got quite a bit of KM procs on the 1st go around w/o BCB. So i had to redo it so that way they were similar on the meters. As in the numbers of spells/attacks casted in the rotation are similar and I timed them accordingly to show % base that way you can see on paper.
If this was ICC gear there would be no tests required, BCB is far too impressive to pass up and tanks shouldn't ever have an issue with threat outside of T7.5. I'm about 3850 Gearscore or something atm with Silent Crusader from Naxx 25 trash in the mainhand. In raids i'm hit capped, but outside of raids i'm 13.95% spell hit so I did multiple tests and took the best from both. I'm around 3500 unbuffed DPS with Subversion atm, and 3300 or so with BCB. This is still a gearing stage for Lordaeron however, so these numbers would change. Also i'd like to note that my average total damage with BCB is a little higher than the 2.9% shown. Usually 3.5-4% of my total damage so i'm going to chalk BCB as 3400 dps instead. Which is very close bc if you pop a haste pot/Bloodlust you can get more out of it.

http://imgur.com/9ELJhV4 This is with Subversion

http://imgur.com/qFnxt4i Here is Blood-Caked Blade

Mind you I didn't just test this once. I spent about 30minutes or so on each spec testing my Haste prepotting and each dps test was 3minutes with 2 of them on each spec 5minutes and 1 long 10minute duration to test them. I decided to upload the 3minute tests since they were the closest in comparrison for spells/attacks used within the rotation. Some other tests had more Killing Machine procs which in this gear level requires me to spend on 7-9k Howling Blast crits unbuffed. Frost Strike combined Crit damage is about 2500 damage less and OB is about 1000 damage less.

If you guys would like any more testing/proof i'll be more than glad to help out. Again I'm Double (Alliance side) on Lordaeron.

http://i.imgur.com/XkDiJbl.jpg Melee swings
http://i.imgur.com/3O3HHuf.jpg BCB hits
http://i.imgur.com/amvnl2K.jpg Obliterate hits

Things to note before you read below:
First off, this comparison is STRICTLY for end-game raiding and NOTHING else.
hit rating: 301 (9,18% + 3% = 12,18% melee hit)
haste: 84 haste (3.33%)
arp: 1410
strength (with horn of winter): 2137
agility (with HoW): 573
crit chance (with HoW): 33,42%
expertise: 24/24 (capped for dodges)
Build used for the fight: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jZG0exNMczf0cuzAofM0hxc
Buffs on me: Horn of Winter + Blood presence at all times.
Extra bonuses: engi hand enchant (haste)
Gear setup: http://armory.warmane.com/character/...thwing/summary
I had diseases up for the entire fight.
I had the following dbw procs: haste>crit>haste>crit (in that order)
I have used the rotation given in my guide:

Spoiler: Show

IT > Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor + Hyperspeed Accelerators +Plague Strike > OB > PEST > HB (if*) > ERW > OB > OB > OB > FS dump > OB > OB > BS > PEST > FS dump > OB > OB > OB > FS dump

The proc chance seems to be pretty much dead 30% (in an averagely ideal situation I should've had 106 instead of 101 hits, notice that BCB will only proc from hits [glancing/crit/hit] and won't proc from misses so 355 * 0.3 = 106.5). The damage itself doesn't quite fit though, but it's quite hard to say if it's working as intended as average values here can't be used since whether a crit proced BCB or a hit proced it will make a very big difference in recount data. I can't draw conclusions for it's damage, but the proc rate is as it should be (according to the data I have). In total bcb did 80,481 points of damage out of 3 million total (Which is the avarage damage you should/would do if you raid in a good guild in 25hc, note average. It could be much more, if some dpsers have died, or it might be much less, if your raid dps is very high or you have hero. Also note that this 3m average figure is mainly directed towards single target boss damage for DBS/Fest/rotface (the bosses where most players will race on dps since they're just quite easy here.).

So,
80,481 points of damage versus an extra 9% crit (the threat reduction is mostly, yes mostly negligable as most tanks [end-game wise] have no problems with aggro) on Obliterate, your highest damaging skill? Do note that an obliterate crit will proc both a MH and OH hit thanks to our lovely talent threat of thassarian. So in reality even 1 obliterate crit will be a lot higher in terms of raw damage than 10x bcb procs. Don't be deceived by a 1% increase per point of BCB on recount.

The point I'm making is the following, as a frost dk, when you raid end-game you gem and gear towards arp because of your strong Obliterate hits. You don't go out of your way to gem arp for your autos, you do it because of Obliterate (not that autos are negligable, they're just not the main reason you get arp capped), that's it. It is, has been, and always will be your number 1 ability. It scales so incredibly well that you even go as far as to use a sigil for it. Everything revolves around that skill and even though autos will be 2nd in line (after frost strike is finally fixed) you don't say "erhmagherd let's go boost my 2nd highest damaging source instead of my first", now do you? The extra crits on Obliterate and Blood strike (the 2nd skill's damage is relatively low, but still a boost) will far surpass the use of BCB.

Final note, this is all just my own personal advice and experience, don't be discouraged to try different things out.

Just wanted to throw the bomb here - back when I played on a private server which was on 3.3.5 but worked with a gradual raid release (Naxx>Uldu>ToC etc) I was told that Dark Conviction is actually the best off-spec to go for instead of BCB. The reason being that 5% crit and the attack power from Bladed Armor are much better on low gear than whatever Unholy has to offer, considering that Necrosis and BCB only become good with sufficient ArP.

This is what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by taralej

Just wanted to throw the bomb here - back when I played on a private server which was on 3.3.5 but worked with a gradual raid release (Naxx>Uldu>ToC etc) I was told that Dark Conviction is actually the best off-spec to go for instead of BCB. The reason being that 5% crit and the attack power from Bladed Armor are much better on low gear than whatever Unholy has to offer, considering that Necrosis and BCB only become good with sufficient ArP.

This is what I'm talking about.

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Idk, maybe, I'm utterly clueless when it comes to early levels of progression :D

bcb is bad, every good fdk ive raided with does not spec into it.

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Originally Posted by verminslayer

bcb is bad, every good fdk ive raided with does not spec into it.

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Not that it's bad, I just really strongly believe, based on what I said above, that if you had to choose between Sub/BCB, sub is the clear winner.