Why is my Rogue so weak?

Thank you for all your replies guys. I really appreciate it. It seems that the topic is going deeper than i expected. Thank you for the input and feedback.

One thing caught my attention though, it's this.

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Originally Posted by itsyouitsme

not as sub spec topic starter is playing

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What do you mean by this?

Also, I've played as a Destro Lock myself before and had a Rogue as a partner back in Molten days. I actually reached up to 1986 with that comp. Not that high, but at least it got me Wrathful pieces.

My point here is, it's possible with a Destro Lock, but if that's not the case here in Warmane, then I'd have to adjust my playstyle. I really think we have a potentially good CC chain we can do, as I've always done before, however, it's just that people are just too geared now as compared before for me to be actually able to pull it off.

At this point, how would I be gearing myself now? Should I no longer bother with Wrathful offpieces? Get more PvE ArP gear? How would my playstyle be at this point?

He means that while sub rogues are amazing at killing cloth, leather and mail wearers they arent very great against plate targets. That is untill you get a ton of pve gear so you can start gemming ArP and get high enough so you get to the breakpoints or you stick to mainly the pvp set and gem AP.

This is very important btw, if you dont have enough ArP the gems become worthless, so if you are mostly wearing the pvp pieces you need to gem AP.


And on warmane due to a lot of donors you have to many holy paladins (easiest and probably most op healer) + warriors or DKs. And due to them being bis with smourne too they do to much damage so trying to outlast them becomes extremely hard. A sub rogue with full pvp + AP will struggle to kill a warrior in dstance so the matchup is a lot harder.


However, if the rogue plays with a dps his point isnt really true anymore as you then really dont lack the dps, if you get a 20 second cc chain of onto the pala you will kill the warrior even with AP gear.


And my point is mostly that while lock/rogue works its a lot harder and unforgiving compared to any hybrid/rogue as any offheals massively boost rogue survivability.

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Originally Posted by WolfCD

He means that while sub rogues are amazing at killing cloth, leather and mail wearers they arent very great against plate targets. That is untill you get a ton of pve gear so you can start gemming ArP and get high enough so you get to the breakpoints or you stick to mainly the pvp set and gem AP.

This is very important btw, if you dont have enough ArP the gems become worthless, so if you are mostly wearing the pvp pieces you need to gem AP.


And on warmane due to a lot of donors you have to many holy paladins (easiest and probably most op healer) + warriors or DKs. And due to them being bis with smourne too they do to much damage so trying to outlast them becomes extremely hard. A sub rogue with full pvp + AP will struggle to kill a warrior in dstance so the matchup is a lot harder.


However, if the rogue plays with a dps his point isnt really true anymore as you then really dont lack the dps, if you get a 20 second cc chain of onto the pala you will kill the warrior even with AP gear.


And my point is mostly that while lock/rogue works its a lot harder and unforgiving compared to any hybrid/rogue as any offheals massively boost rogue survivability.

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Thanks for your input Wolf. So, would it be safe to say to just stack AP instead of ArP for now while I'm gearing with Wrathful Off pieces, and at the same time try to get my hands on PvE gear in order to transition into ArP?

How much different would it feel if I stacked AP all the way with my current setup?

I appreciate your response.

purr4g,

Thanks for getting into the details about BiS minutia. I do appreciate your comment, I still felt that Kimberly could have maybe perhaps splenda coated that post before sending it.

I wanted to ask you, I have 77.60% ArP, don't you think it would be best to go 3x +68AP for my JC gems? To hit a bit harder on clothies / leathers? Or do you believe the more is the merrier and try to get 100% ArP?

Thanks!

P.S - What would you consider the absolute best sub spec for all around arena/world pvp/ bg. One spec to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.

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Originally Posted by Sly

purr4g,

Thanks for getting into the details about BiS minutia. I do appreciate your comment, I still felt that Kimberly could have maybe perhaps splenda coated that post before sending it.

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Take the term BiS with a grain of salt. Since there's a few pieces that are 100% BiS without any doubt (glutch as thrown, heaven's fall mainhand, RS 25 HC ring, etc) but there's also a few pieces that are up to preference (lungbreaker/waraxe/wrathful tier2 for offhand choice or neck rimefang/sindragosa/wrathful arp for neck slot, some people also prefer socketing some yellows with resil to enable to use of t10 HC helmet for example, always depends on the player.)

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I wanted to ask you, I have 77.60% ArP, don't you think it would be best to go 3x +68AP for my JC gems? To hit a bit harder on clothies / leathers? Or do you believe the more is the merrier and try to get 100% ArP?

Thanks!

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Going from 70% to 80% is a noticable jump in damage, so yes arp in this case wins.

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P.S - What would you consider the absolute best sub spec for all around arena/world pvp/ bg. One spec to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.

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Something like that doesn't exist, anyone telling you otherwise is completely full of ****. There's a basic spec that's the most optimal, but a few things are exchangable and come down to preference. For example while I still played arena I never ran Hightened Senses, since I literally encountered no rogue at 2.4k, outside of 1 team which also only happened like twice. Made the talent pretty ****ty, since I rather run those 2 points in something more consistent, never been a fan of the 4% RNG. Now that I basicly only BG for some fun, I actually use it since I meet enough rogues in BGs to make it worthwhile, plus the amount of spells casted on me and ranged attacks is a lot higher (warr pal meta says Hi from 2s). Some people spend their spare points into 3/3 camouflage while running 2/3 ruthelessness, while others prefer going 2/3 camou and 3/3 ruth. So bottom line is, do what fits you and makes you feel most comfortable with your own playstyle. Since in the end, rogue is still one of those classes which allows you to give it a little bit of your own magic and have your own way to play.

But one thing doesn't change, lethality is a crap talent, don't waste even 1point on it.

I didn't check your armory, so I don't know what setup are u playing and how is your rogue geared but let me tell you just few things for my experience:

Your primary "role" is not doing damage, or being first on dps or seeing huge critz...things like that that just warriors or ele shamans adore. You need to ANNOY people by doing controls over and over again (with brain, not just spam obviously), you will be suriprised how much control you can do and how you can evade from enemies' damage. Once you mastered that, throw some ccs, like (for example) build 5 combo point on your victim, wait to be full energy, blind his partner without trinket, istant Kidney shot full 6 seconds and spam damage like mad in coordination with your partner, and you can maybe kill him.

I see many Rogues entering arena, "forgotting" to sap or blind or blind then resap, then just spam hemmorrage the moment they have the energy, same for kidney, spam hemmorrage, 5 CP>kidney> back to 0 energy>autoattack for the whole kidney. You won't make pressure at all in this way. Just you alone in a kidney with full energy and shadowdance up can do serious damage and force defensive cds, imagine with some coordination with your partner.

TLDR: Dont think Rogue is a damage class that does like idk, 5k dps costantly over and over again. It can be 1k dps for 2 minutes straight..but if it catches you in a bad situation (without heals on you/trinket, wrong positioning, idk) it can become a 7k dps very very mad. So time your cds, pool energy, be good with coordinating with your partner and dont spam abilities as soon as you have the energy! Try to keep always at least the energy for the kick when u fight against casters, for example.
Also dont vanish at low energy if you are bursting, calculate the next energy cost of garrote/cheapshot/ambush/what are going to do, otherwise you will stay in stealth wating for energy regen, and probably will get spotted...Just basic tips, practice more in arena and replay matches of rogues in arena (pref disci-rogue, or anything different thatn shp-rogue since shp carries a lot the comp and rogue can afford mistakes)

Rogues are generally kinda weak in wotlk i would say and on top of this if not played properly then it is terrible.

Their are 3 specs.1-Muti/prep,2-Shadowdance,3-KS

All 3 are viable.I like muti/prep because nice enery regen amd amazing constant burst,however u need deadly poison up so it breaks blind and gouge.

KS and muti specs have amazing energy regen where as shadowdance doesnt give this.With SD spec your dmg comes from hemo and backstabs with the occasional shadowdance ambuahea.However it is more of support spec.Gives great utility in arena.

The problem i see with most rogues is that they cant play it properly or are terrible.Either stack full attack power or resi or armor pen.Dont mix and match.If u go half and half then u are useless.

Personally i have 98% armor pen and with KS build my KS takes away at least half hp of a plate user.

U do all your work in stealth and stuns,so why stack resi?U are not a warr.Even stacking resi u will get 4shotted lol.

Attack power stacking is okay but it doesnt hurt plate uaers much,armor pen is the real deal.

Try typing wow wotlk rogue pvp videos in youtube and u will have hour answer? oAlso log on to wotlk instant 80 realm and duel people to see how to play your char.

98% armor pen? in muti spe .... WTF. Full arpen work only because you play sub and human with cheat death. Everytime i see some sub (tunnelling ofc) be save by it, try to play without pretty sure we can die in 2s. This is the easiest way to play rogue. (please don't say, it's hard need timing. Play muti/ assa and try to run after a mage/hunt )

Muti spe don't need stack of arpen only because evenom do nature damage (like boomkins) trought armor. Arpen in this spe is only for mutilate damage.
The thing i don't understand it's evenom damage,it's just a ****ing joke. 5 stacks of poison, 5 points crit = 4k in bg on war if you are lucky, on heal (hpala/rdrood) crit = 2k5. So yes the main damage of muti suck. (Before i did 6k-8k on war, don't remember on heal)

I do more damage with assassination spe (same arpen) than muti. (i play it nowaday)

So it's seems to have some matters with evenoms damage. If arpen increase evenom damage (i don't test it) you can put rogue in trash. And i don't talk about this ridiculous dodge of space on gouge/dismantle/kydney shot(yesterday a rogue dodge my dismantle/ gouge/ blind) or vanish.

You misunderstood him, Phrias, he did mention he has 98% ArP with Killing Spree spec, and not Mutilate.

Spoiler: Show

"Personally i have 98% armor pen and with KS build my KS takes away at least half hp of a plate user."

Also, major disagree with Rogues being "weak this expansion" - it's just very very few people can pilot it well in PvP.

First of all, why do you need ap/stamina gems? All you should go for is 1xAll stats, 10 resi 20 AP on essential yellow sockets, and the rest should be Attack Power. Your gear is not BiS, but it is decent. Furthermore, you haven't maxed Honor Among Thieves which is the most essential talent for rogues and should be maxed all the time unless you play RM/RMP.

Another thing is, you're playing with a Lock. You've got no idea what you've gotten yourself into. That is one of the hardest comps for a rogue to play since you only get a Healthstone, and little to no resets.

Your Attack power could be higher, do it by replacing those AP/Stamina gems with full AP.
Your Resilience is absolutely fine for a rogue.

You may need some ARP, but keep in mind that you should never stack ARP gems. The only source of ARP should be your jewelries and offsets.

PS: Lock is generally the main source of damage in the comp you're playing. Play more defensively, and if your partner does not outdamage you, consider getting another one ;p

At the moment, I'm trying to push as more rating as I can with Rogue in SoloQ (i always did 2s and 3s rated and never went over 2k, retail and private, also I played/play much more other classes so I forget about my Rogue).
Anyway, after a really bad start, I decided to try something different in SoloQ.
I can say 80% of rogues in that bracket are very bad, fragile and panic very easily (and unable to do some CC obv). Also, they run with burst pieces and I don't know, 900 resilience, thats why they die in 2 seconds despite you spamming flash of light for 20 seconds straight and still you can't full their health.

So in 2s I usually go with pvp set and offset full pve to burst down quickly, no matter muti or sub I didn't notice much difference damage talking (mobility talking muti is terrible), but well a Warrior can one shot u with both specs so I decided to pick the mutilate one since the huge amount of plates that you can face. Not to mention, Sub uses Gouge very often, even on main target, and I got bored of the ridicolous amount of dodge/parry/block that u get (even from clothies, specially mages that are master in dodging rogues' controls, even kicks..), so no thanks I don't want to take the "RNG/Luck/Let's hope this CC will land" road. Also Paladins and Shamans with 1-2 keys remove Wound Poison and Crippling, with Mutilate they have Wound+Crippling+5xDeadly = 7x Poisons. Try to purge that when ur partner is low health and full poisoned.

Back to SoloQ: I went down to 1350 very fast, so I tried new spec, i removed Fleet Footed and put Improved Kidney, also i choose Deadened Nerves (reduced damage taken by %) instead of Find Weakness (increased abilities by %). Also I use Glyph oh Cloak of Shadows, Vigor, and Mutilate. (I replaced Sprint and Preparation). Then I changed all offset pve into pvp ones, and gems (40AP > 20 resi) and now I'm at 1650 resilence. My attack power is ridicolous but this is working pretty good in SoloQ, a bracket where u are alone, playing a fragile class, and matched with random guys. I did few games and now I'm 1600, I escaped the 1350 zone finally, even against TSG or "triple-caster" where u are 90% of time snared doing nothing. Basically this spec is a "tanking" one, while your partners do the damage (improved kidney shot and ToT when bursting is very important).
For SoloQ I don't think is bad, I am not a Rogue master but unless I DuoQ or do other brackets where I have voice coordination with my teammates, I personally wouldn't go "burst-mode".
Let's see how this goes.