Let's get something out of the way once and for all

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October 27, 2017
Mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

Happy to clarify. Note: By T5 items I meant T5 content items, so that means TK/SSC loot. (Not including DST)

Of course it doesn't include DST. Gruul isn't T5 content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

My point remains in my earlier post. Current bis items from T5 shouldn't already be on store before BT, as they will not be replaced in Hyjal or are the same as Hyjal items.

So, a handful of items. At most. This isn't really a point. This is an opinion. What you said in your previous post about this isn't really correct, either. Ideally, items indeed aren't released on the marketplace until the next tier is available (and part of it is), but whether an item is on the marketplace depends on how much the boss and the items in question are being farmed. It's very common that what is on the marketplace isn't ideal for some people. Many people have varying opinions of what should and should not be on the marketplace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

Not asking for this to be changed, but more caution and thought should be taken into account before killing gearing progression path for many raiders.

You are aware that after all of the raid content is available on the realm for a little while, 100% of items available from them will be on the marketplace, yes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

Additionally we were assured by a Staff member that T5 items would not be in store "for a very long time" assuring us Hyjal was not being rushed to add T5 items to the store. That was the confusing part for me.

You really should be providing quotes when saying such things. And if someone did say explicitly that, then it needs to be ammended. But in any case, we are allowed to change our minds. That's not to say that a modicum of fairness won't be maintained, because it will. However, overstating and misquoting things will cause needless arguments and upset people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbazz

Dragonspine Trophy, Void Reaver loot, SSC loot not including Vashj or Hydross and also excluding all T5 tier tokens. I'm against the shop but they gotta stay in business and this isn't too big of a deal considering Hyjal is already open and T5 has been cleared for months, all of the harder/later T5 boss loot is still not available on the store.

I agree with this. Marketplace releases may interfere (as being bad, or as being help, view points may vary) with people regardless, because not everyone is doing the absolute latest content. But for those that are, these item releases are hardly relevant. For those that aren't, this would still be the case if Black Temple was open or not.
October 27, 2017
septic69

I can't remember which staff member it was, but they were actually referring to the set pieces not being available for a long time. I believe tier 5 set pieces will coincide with season 2 gear when season 3 starts, the same as when the tier 4 and season 1 gear was released on the marketplace. So that should be not long after December 17th.
October 28, 2017
actus93

I got no qualms with the Marketplace, we all signed up for it. However, BiS current content loot should not be given out almost like free candy. It is not a "handful" of T5 items, by definition, my post included 15 items. These are Tier 5 items regardless of the class sets or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proterean

The marketplace will not feature T5 items for a very long time.

~3-3.5 weeks before T5 on store.
Post

This was said in a conversation about why T6 Hyjal was being rushed so quickly when at the time 3 guilds were farming KT, while 2 others got a recent first kill. The prevalent theory was that it was to rush T5 items to store, a business decision.

Hyjal was argued to be released "early" because it was out with launch on retail, but it was gated behind an unkillable KT and 4 vials per kill drop until both were changed at Patch 2.1 when BT released. Neither of the gatings were emulated here for Hyjal to be released with a BT timeline. Therefore the marketplace was the obvious point of discussion as to the fastened Hyjal release.

Again, the point is the same 2 posts ago. Current BiS items (15 items I quoted) available on store without proper restrictions have had seen every serious (and not) raiders gear progression path changed to farming gold to sell for coins or buying coins for cheap BiS pieces to be competitive in raids, even though many of us have already cleared Hyjal already. These items won't be replaced in Hyjal making it a current endgame item and not a catch-up mechanic item.

To clarify I was asking for more restrictions on these Best in Slot pieces, examples:
1) Delay store release until they are the 2nd Best items.
2) Add attunements/X amount of boss Y kills on characters for them to be available for purchase.
3) Increase price of items by a lot more while they are current Best pieces.

It's not that I mind a green geared player with Talon, good on him to get one, the issue is every raider has to consider using the store for their ideal setups to progress or be competitive or even complete their characters. We like to be more powerful, so we do whatever to get the most power items as quickly as possible. For PvE, we should at least kill the monsters a few items before taking RNG out of the equation and just getting that last piece.

@Bigbazz You cannot claim what is true and false without actually providing proof or a source for comparison, and not within your guild.

I raid with the top overall DPS parsed on raidstats and this is their current gear or thoughts as I've asked them. (Like Warboots, the top Fury says its bis) Whether you put weight into Raidstats parses or not, that is a source for comparison overall and they are currently top in rankings for nearly all fights of their class. Regardless, I have said Talon is top 3 in that post, and the margin if any is negligible in terms of performance as provided @ raidstats. Whether or not you can beat them by wearing X item you'll have to prove by doing it on Raidstats. There is no other comparison atm.

-Grave
October 28, 2017
Mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

I got no qualms with the Marketplace, we all signed up for it. However, BiS current content loot should not be given out almost like free candy. It is not a "handful" of T5 items, by definition, my post included 15 items. These are Tier 5 items regardless of the class sets or not.

Do I need to argue semantics? How many items from T6 content are currently available in-game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

This was said in a conversation about why T6 Hyjal was being rushed so quickly when at the time 3 guilds were farming KT, while 2 others got a recent first kill. The prevalent theory was that it was to rush T5 items to store, a business decision.

Emphasis on "farming". As for something being a business decision, does it matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

Hyjal was argued to be released "early" because it was out with launch on retail, but it was gated behind an unkillable KT and 4 vials per kill drop until both were changed at Patch 2.1 when BT released. Neither of the gatings were emulated here for Hyjal to be released with a BT timeline. Therefore the marketplace was the obvious point of discussion as to the fastened Hyjal release.

That's not so much an argument as it is a "matter of fact" statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

Again, the point is the same 2 posts ago. Current BiS items (15 items I quoted) available on store without proper restrictions have had seen every serious (and not) raiders gear progression path changed to farming gold to sell for coins or buying coins for cheap BiS pieces to be competitive in raids, even though many of us have already cleared Hyjal already. These items won't be replaced in Hyjal making it a current endgame item and not a catch-up mechanic item.

Again on the topic of "15 items".
"Without proper restrictions"
Why would these items have restrictions? What sort of restrictions would be reasonable to put on them? There are plenty of restrictions to put on them from a player point of view, but how reasonable and feasible would those restrictions be from a businessman perspective - especially when specifically stated at the launch of the realm that Outland would be a TBC Icecrown. You can use quotes to back up your argument, but so can I. Even so, is it not reasonable to expect that things can change if deemed necessary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

To clarify I was asking for more restrictions on these Best in Slot pieces, examples:
1) Delay store release until they are the 2nd Best items.
2) Add attunements/X amount of boss Y kills on characters for them to be available for purchase.
3) Increase price of items by a lot more while they are current Best pieces.

It's not that I mind a green geared player with Talon, good on him to get one, the issue is every raider has to consider using the store for their ideal setups to progress or be competitive or even complete their characters. We like to be more powerful, so we do whatever to get the most power items as quickly as possible. For PvE, we should at least kill the monsters a few items before taking RNG out of the equation and just getting that last piece.

Feeling compelled to do so is not the same as being required to do so. The existence of the marketplace does make getting some items easier. Is it required? Most certainly not. In fact, some people even pride themselves on not having purchased anything from the marketplace, or perhaps even avoid using the marketplace simply because they don't want to take away from "the grind". The fact that the marketplace items exist in any form, restrictions or not, players will feel compelled to use the marketplace regardless. So what I'm concerned with now is that despite you saying "we all signed up for it", you are doing your best to argue against its existence while knowing full well the best you can do is to delay it. At this point, all I can really think to respond with is "You may enjoy playing on Medivh more" or "Accept that the marketplace is entirely optional and try to move on". I'm not sure what more I can say to you, since I'm sure you're completely aware that T6 is partially released, and thus that opens up the possibilities of releasing items from farmed content on the marketplace from the previous tier as mentioned in septic69's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actus93

@Bigbazz You cannot claim what is true and false without actually providing proof or a source for comparison, and not within your guild.

I raid with the top overall DPS parsed on raidstats and this is their current gear or thoughts as I've asked them. (Like Warboots, the top Fury says its bis) Whether you put weight into Raidstats parses or not, that is a source for comparison overall and they are currently top in rankings for nearly all fights of their class. Regardless, I have said Talon is top 3 in that post, and the margin if any is negligible in terms of performance as provided @ raidstats. Whether or not you can beat them by wearing X item you'll have to prove by doing it on Raidstats. There is no other comparison atm.

May I ask why you feel that validates their opinions on the matter above anyone else's?
October 28, 2017
actus93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

Do I need to argue semantics? How many items from T6 content are currently available in-game?

Actually, since this is going to become a mudslinging contest, lets do some semantic research.

handful
noun
1.
a quantity that fills the hand.
"a small handful of fresh coriander"

You used this term to describe the current available BiS items from T5 on the store. I said no, that is not a handful. Now you say it is a handful compared to T6 items available in Hyjal which is literally not a replacement for the list I made because the list I made is the current BEST-in-Slot. Even we cancel what items @Bigbazz said that's still 13 items which is still not a handful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

Emphasis on "farming". As for something being a business decision, does it matter?

Yes, 3 guilds of 25 guilds that killed the other T5 endgame boss, Lady Vashj. That's 12% of current-tier raiding guilds (the 12% of your "the 1%" on retail). Business decision to release half of T6 and than rush T5 items on store for maximum profit at the expense of those progressing that content or have just gotten those items from hard progressive hours. Seeing those items in the hands of those that just dinged 70 or other competitive raiders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

That's not so much an argument as it is a "matter of fact" statement.

I was providing context to Proterean's comment which mislead us. Sure, you can change your mind. Also, you can do whatever you want business wise. I'm not inciting a riot, just providing my feedback, unappreciated obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

Again on the topic of "15 items".
"Without proper restrictions"
Why would these items have restrictions? What sort of restrictions would be reasonable to put on them?

I provided a list of restrictions on items that are the Best right now so that less people have Best items, preferably those who worked for them, as opposed to anyone and everyone.

I have nothing against the marketplace, I signed up for it yes, knowing items will be available from the previous tier while progression is going on eventually all items will be available. However, during progress you are making available (cheaply) the best items that are currently out. Therefore the edge you get while progressing is negligible because if you kill the boss, all the bosses items are now available to the whole server. If there was a delay, or a restriction for being able to buy items from said boss that'd be fine. Right now it's not a catch-up mechanic, but a current best gear progression mechanic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy

May I ask why you feel that validates their opinions on the matter above anyone else's?

Their opinion is more valuable as they have proven results in their expertise in their area of knowledge.
October 28, 2017
bigbazz

Quote:

@Bigbazz You cannot claim what is true and false without actually providing proof or a source for comparison, and not within your guild.

I raid with the top overall DPS parsed on raidstats and this is their current gear or thoughts as I've asked them. (Like Warboots, the top Fury says its bis) Whether you put weight into Raidstats parses or not, that is a source for comparison overall and they are currently top in rankings for nearly all fights of their class. Regardless, I have said Talon is top 3 in that post, and the margin if any is negligible in terms of performance as provided @ raidstats. Whether or not you can beat them by wearing X item you'll have to prove by doing it on Raidstats. There is no other comparison atm.

1. Raid stats is not a credible or reliable/comprehensive source of parsing information and I don't accept it as such, much of what we uploaded from Surge was what you could only describe as "wonky" compared to what actually happened.. I don't put any value into those stats, because they are not accurate, nor are they comprehensive to the server.

2. Referencing a top parsing Rogue is not a valid supporting argument, if you want to follow the theorycrafting then how about you delve into the rogue forums or speak to some other rogues from top guilds? I did extensive testing with Rogues using Rod of the Sun King (thanks to Illuminate, and also Grenadine for providing their time/numbers), numbers that are posted in the notes section of my public Warrior gear sheet.

The actual Rogue with the most top parses on Raid Stats is using Dragonstrike so even if you use the site it doesn't support your view, like I already explained in my previous post the relevance of this is pretty low anyway, a single items effect on overall performance pales in comparison to everything else, such as raid/group composition, cooldown optimisation, consumables, raid dps distribution, overall raid dps.... Everything else dwarfs this in relevance.

3. Which top Fury exactly? If you can talk about players in such a way with a straight face then fine, but you should know that I developed and did all of the testing for the Fury gearing spreadsheet that is being widely used on the server. Given my experience in this area (that is DPS Warrior theorycrafting in general over the last decade of WoW) I'm extremely confident when it comes to speaking about Warrior gearing, but it doesn't take an expert to do some stat counting between the 3 above mentioned boot options to realise that the Warboots are the weakest of the 3.

The most amusing thing is that you seem to think that having a high dps parse, or the highest actually makes a player the "top" guy. When the absolute most important part of a players dps (assuming they are at least decent as players) is provided by everything and everyone other than the player in question, the raid setup, the group setup, the strategy, raid dps distribution etc etc. And with that considered it's ludicrous for you to suggest that credibility of knowledge has direct relation to performance. You know if I suddenly get free reign to create the perfect raid/group setup and strategy for myself and destroy everyones dps parses, does that suddenly make what I say more correct? Of course it doesn't, it's a ludicrous idea.

Theorycrafting deals with numbers, if your guilds Fury Warrior believes Warboots are BIS then he/she hasn't spent any time looking at the numbers, or you're lying at their expense to support your opinion (the more likely case I suspect).

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