Gear Based Battlegrounds

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Originally Posted by Evangelion

So having two pvp specs and switching them depending on what my team lacks is apparently making me feel proud of myself? What.
No, I just enjoy playing PvP with different specs because they're all fun. Also I don't like healing when there's already 5 healers because then it's boring, usually almost nothing to do unless it's AV.

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You're advertising the act of switching specs mid BG as fun which is just bizarre cause to me it sounds like a pointless chore that is a byproduct of a flawed system.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion

5v5 is different than BG tho, in BG you don't just need to focus on killing the enemy team but objectives as well. Outsmart people etc (of course, that's if there are two good premades fighting each other.

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Just stop. Anyone that has seen or has participated in RBGs knows it's just death ball vs death ball where everyone spams damage/CC into the enemy death ball and hopes they die sooner so they can take objectives. It's not rocket science and it's nowhere near the skill required to play high rate 3s so it shouldn't have the same rewards. Like I said, it didn't matter in Cataclysm because all rewards in Cataclsym were meaningless grinds, whereas in Wotlk, you need to show some proficiency. If you reward people mashing their face on the keyboard with the same rewards as people playing the most balanced and skillful form of PvP this game has to offer, then you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion

I'm not comparing it, I just used it as an example.
Also rated BG wouldn't be giving 3s rewards obviously, but only unlocking same stuff as 2s are doing. And 2s are blatantly stupid to play to get 2k rating to have everything it can offer, and I'd always choose playing 2s over RatedBG to get my 4/5WF gear because it's 10x faster. Everything else is people playing it for various reasons, none of them are gearing. So RatedBG wouldn't hurt them much. Then there's also the fact that most of those arena heroes on higher rating wouldn't bother with Rated BG since they like arena more, and everyone who's gearing would still be using 2s for it.

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Now this is more acceptable. Let the 3s folk have their shoul...

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Originally Posted by Evangelion

I honestly wouldn't even care if Rated BG wasn't giving points but only rating instead so you can have competitive teams there as well. With some rewards from say first 3 ranked teams at the end of a season. (Nothing huge like the 2s/3s ranks are getting (since RatedBG would be 10 players per team, but still something)

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Exactly. I'm not sure why you would even care about rewards in a mode like this when you've said already that you think the only people who will be doing this will already be fully geared anyway. Just get rid of the Wrathful rewards and let them grind meaningless rate to flex with in front of their cities.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Obviously weapons will be excluded as per arena and combat rules. This is typical MMO player mentality where they're gonna perceive something taken away from them as bad, no matter how insignificant that thing might be, with complete disregard for the bigger picture and the effect it's gonna have.

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but then i can remove my weapon to lower my gs.or i will remove my shoudowmoure and 2 gear pieces and then queue up.even w/o 2 items i will completely destroy everyone in lower gs bracket.and what about party queue?if my friend is lower gs i am 6.5k gs what bracket we will end up?if you make it party avarage gs then what stop fully geared players to get 2 naked alts in party with them and queue for low gs bracket where they will completely dominate.and how will you fix the problem if i queue naked queue pop then i equip all my gear and press enter?

another problem with this system is classes that dont scale well with gear.for example BM hunters are extremely OP with low gear.why will any BM hunter ever queue in his wrathful gear when he can go for lower GS honor gear and play lower gs bracket where he will dominate way easy then higher one.

there is so many problems with this that and so much work to just implement it and for what?because few people who just start playing the game complain that they get rekt in bgs?you think all this work to make this system will be worth?

ofc people hate when something is taken away from them.and i dont think this is insignificant.if i have farm my gear for months i wanna be able to go and rekt people who are have not invest as much time as me in the game.also this will remove the whole since of progression.no matter if you are 4k gs or 6k gs or 2k gs in BG you will feel exactly the same because people around you will all have similar gear.

If warmane wanna fix gear problem in bgs there is way more simple way.simple make ap/honor gain x10 so people gear up faster and there you go.
another option is what blizzard did,add pvp gear boxes that randomly drop as reward from bgs.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Just stop. Anyone that has seen or has participated in RBGs knows it's just death ball vs death ball where everyone spams damage/CC into the enemy death ball and hopes they die sooner so they can take objectives. It's not rocket science and it's nowhere near the skill required to play high rate 3s so it shouldn't have the same rewards. Like I said, it didn't matter in Cataclysm because all rewards in Cataclsym were meaningless grinds, whereas in Wotlk, you need to show some proficiency. If you reward people mashing their face on the keyboard with the same rewards as people playing the most balanced and skillful form of PvP this game has to offer, then you're doing something wrong.

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Depends and it's still a lot more fun than slaughtering randoms, but random bg is well exactly that, random. Nobody is forcing anyone to play that to gear up on low gs. I myself have a few a lot faster options to get decent gear to be around 5k gs and it's faster than spamming RBG (and lose a lot depending on your faction because I'm useless as well).
Also some BGs like Arathi/EotS aren't exactly just who kills more. I've won so many AB's because even tho other team was overgearing us, we outsmarted them with capping stuff.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Now this is more acceptable. Let the 3s folk have their shoul...

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I never even tho about the idea of having 3s tiered gear on RatedBG bracket, that would be dumb. So only the same stuff as 2s for rewards.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

JExactly. I'm not sure why you would even care about rewards in a mode like this when you've said already that you think the only people who will be doing this will already be fully geared anyway. Just get rid of the Wrathful rewards and let them grind meaningless rate to flex with in front of their cities.

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Well, why not have some tho? It'd be something to look forward to and have some reason to chase rank 1 and do a lot of Rateds (so geared people would leave random bgs for people with less gear and focus more on Rated).

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

but then i can remove my weapon to lower my gs.or i will remove my shoudowmoure and 2 gear pieces and then queue up.even w/o 2 items i will completely destroy everyone in lower gs bracket.and what about party queue?if my friend is lower gs i am 6.5k gs what bracket we will end up?if you make it party avarage gs then what stop fully geared players to get 2 naked alts in party with them and queue for low gs bracket where they will completely dominate.and how will you fix the problem if i queue naked queue pop then i equip all my gear and press enter?

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First of all, all of these problems already exist. Shadowmourne heroes are routinely cleaving through 3k GS scrubs that just hit lvl 80 in BGs, this is nothing new. A few individuals that are gonna try to cheat the system is not a case against it because the current system is worse by default. I've thought about the weapon switching and there are solutions to it like keeping track of the max GS/ilvl the character usually has and using that as permanent value to avoid smurfs. Other variables can be added as well, total kills, time played, win/loss ratio in BGs. You can make an algorithm that estimates a player's capabilities into one number, like some sort of solo MMR. So for example if Grok, slayer of RMP joins a BG with 80% win rate, Shadowmourne and 300 days played, his number is going to be a much larger portion of his team's, which means he's either going to have weaker teammates to compensate or there will be a Grok on the enemy team as well, or they will just have a more equal spread of power. The point here is to find an easy and accurate way to estimate player power and then have a system use that power to build comparatively equal teams on both sides. There are a lot of possibilities here but we are getting into the realms of science fiction at this point.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

another problem with this system is classes that dont scale well with gear.for example BM hunters are extremely OP with low gear.why will any BM hunter ever queue in his wrathful gear when he can go for lower GS honor gear and play lower gs bracket where he will dominate way easy then higher one.

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I don't consider this a particularly big issue but a more in depth power algorithm would fix this.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

there is so many problems with this that and so much work to just implement it and for what?because few people who just start playing the game complain that they get rekt in bgs?you think all this work to make this system will be worth?

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It's not really a few people. Anyone who isn't full BiS is going to be at a serious disadvantage on a server like Icecrown where PvE geared humans are more common than the language they speak. Make no mistake, I'm well aware that any kind of BG matchmaking system like this is almost assuredly never going to happen because not only is it a lot of work that could potentially slow down the server but also because whether they like to admit it or not, a good portion of the player base enjoys the no effort PvP that comes with facing undergeared people and when Warmane is faced with the choice of either creating a more fair PvP environment or catering to their main contributors, I think I have a pretty good guess what the choice is going to be. Most of everything I've written so far is either opinion or hypothetical and nothing but an exercise in rhetoric, which is exactly what the OP asked for.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

ofc people hate when something is taken away from them.and i dont think this is insignificant.if i have farm my gear for months i wanna be able to go and rekt people who are have not invest as much time as me in the game.also this will remove the whole since of progression.no matter if you are 4k gs or 6k gs or 2k gs in BG you will feel exactly the same because people around you will all have similar gear.

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Well, now I feel silly for saying people don't like to admit that they overcompensate with their gear and have little interest in a fair PvP environment because god forbid they have to think about the buttons they press. More power to you for having a complete lack of shame.

If this were case it should be 2 categories. Those above 5k and those below. Otherwise you'll get long que times and people can still make twinks to massacre lowbies anywho but at least they get a better fighting chance.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Well, now I feel silly for saying people don't like to admit that they overcompensate with their gear and have little interest in a fair PvP environment because god forbid they have to think about the buttons they press. More power to you for having a complete lack of shame.

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people who are interested in fair PVP queue arena and try to push rating.no one expect fairness from random BG thats just silly.if you want fair BGs then its way better to make rated bgs.people who are fully geared queue bgs to do some easy relaxing PVP.there is no other reason for it.i think this is normal for mmoprg and exist in 99% of games in this genre.nad yes i dont feel shame that after investing months of my time i will 2 shot someone who just start the game.this is how the game is suppose to be.if i want PVP where gear dont matter i can simple go play legion.

i will ask you again how is this system better then simple making people gear up faster by upping ap/honor gain or making them get pvp items as reward from bgs?at least that way they will not split the community into brackets that will most likely completely **** the queue for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

people who are interested in fair PVP queue arena

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> arena
> fair pvp

not on Warmane

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

people who are interested in fair PVP queue arena and try to push rating.no one expect fairness from random BG thats just silly.if you want fair BGs then its way better to make rated bgs.people who are fully geared queue bgs to do some easy relaxing PVP.there is no other reason for it.i think this is normal for mmoprg and exist in 99% of games in this genre.nad yes i dont feel shame that after investing months of my time i will 2 shot someone who just start the game.this is how the game is suppose to be.if i want PVP where gear dont matter i can simple go play legion.

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You're just reinforcing my point that a better system can be made but we'll never see any efforts towards it because we have all these Icecrown babies crying they wont be able to feel special anymore. You have an entire subsection of instanced PvP being a boring stomp fest for one side or the other because of the nonexistent balancing of a system not made for a server with this kind of gear disparity and your main fear of having some sort of rudimentary balancing is that you, god forbid, might actually have to keep your brain turned on while participating.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

i will ask you again how is this system better then simple making people gear up faster by upping ap/honor gain or making them get pvp items as reward from bgs?at least that way they will not split the community into brackets that will most likely completely **** the queue for everyone.

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Because increasing the rewards doesn't address the fundamental issue of BGs not being engaging for either side. You will grind your gear faster but you will still spend that grind either afking at your graveyard or camping the enemy graveyard and then even when you are done grinding, nothing changes.