State of PVP from my POV

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December 31, 2017
H4T3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakkre

Why not just make a flat map with no objects whatsoever and put a flag on both sides? Whats the purpose of objects when u can hit and shoot through everything?

It's not one sided you know. And it's never like one side is always ranged dps and other side is always melee. And it's not like one faction can abuse and others can't.

In fact, if "same" advantage is available to "both" sides, it can't even be called an abuse.

Just think for a moment for mages or hunters, what if they have to run all the way up a tower in AV just to get line of sight, how much space / room is available to fight inside a tower? Mage can't simply hug you and damage you at the same time lol. Must think all the angles.

This thread is getting slightly off-topic now.
December 31, 2017
Jakkre

Quote:

Originally Posted by H4T3

It's not one sided you know. And it's never like one side is always ranged dps and other side is always melee. And it's not like one faction can abuse and others can't.

In fact, if "same" advantage is available to "both" sides, it can't even be called an abuse.

Just because both factions suffer and benefit from it equally doesn't mean that its a less crucial problem.
The inexistence of out of line is something that makes the overall quality of PvP worse.
It makes ppl play the game like it wasn't intended by making PvP a "who can shoot through objects the best" competition.
The towers and bunkers in AV for example are there to be conquered and deffended but without LoS its worthless to defend a tower room because ull get hit by opponents that u can't even see nor reach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H4T3

Just think for a moment for mages or hunters, what if they have to run all the way up a tower in AV just to get line of sight, how much space / room is available to fight inside a tower? Mage can't simply hug you and damage you at the same time lol. Must think all the angles.

How is it any fair that a mage can use blizzard from the bottom of a tower to hit defender inside the tower room through the texture. Lol.
Beeing a range dps is nearly always a advantage in BGs. Most fights are on the open field where rdps have tons of space to kite. Also in large scale battles like AV rdps can hide in the crowd and snipe opponents from the safe distance.
Buildings are one of the few spots where it would be a advantage to be a melee but now its even there a disadvantage because the rdps can hit through all textures as if they have some kind of god mode cheat.
December 31, 2017
Ricksyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakkre

Just because both factions suffer and benefit from it equally doesn't mean that its a less crucial problem.
The inexistence of out of line is something that makes the overall quality of PvP worse.
It makes ppl play the game like it wasn't intended by making PvP a "who can shoot through objects the best" competition.
The towers and bunkers in AV for example are there to be conquered and deffended but without LoS its worthless to defend a tower room because ull get hit by opponents that u can't even see nor reach.

How is it any fair that a mage can use blizzard from the bottom of a tower to hit defender inside the tower room through the texture. Lol.
Beeing a range dps is nearly always a advantage in BGs. Most fights are on the open field where rdps have tons of space to kite. Also in large scale battles like AV rdps can hide in the crowd and snipe opponents from the safe distance.
Buildings are one of the few spots where it would be a advantage to be a melee but now its even there a disadvantage because the rdps can hit through all textures as if they have some kind of god mode cheat.

Not sure what you mean by casting blizzard through the flood in towers. It's only possible to cast blizzard on something that you are in line of sight of... Only the center point has to meet that condition though, seeing as blizzard then is an AoE spell it could possibly be used in such a way.

Many of you seem to be confusing what is considered to block line of sight and not. You just have to understand that every single object was never supposed to block line of sight and whatever you're used to from other servers needs to be forgotten.

This is a blizzlike server in terms game mechanics, the develepers have been very strict about that. You can't compare the Icecrown player crowd with Outland, from my experience they are two completely different communities with vastly different views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakkre

Melee attacks don't ignore LoS on retail.
Its not possible on retail to hit with melee attacks through the wall of a tower room in AV. Also u can't hit through a pillar in the arena.

Like MaXiMuS54 said, PvP really gets ruined without LoS.
Deffending a tower in AV is a complete joke when a mage can stay at the bottom of a tower and spam blizzard on deffender inside the tower room or when melee opponents run up the tower and hit from outside of the tower, through the wall, on players inside the tower room.
U can't even call this PvP, it's just a "who can abuse LoS the most" feast.

Why not just make a flat map with no objects whatsoever and put a flag on both sides? Whats the purpose of objects when u can hit and shoot through everything?

You can auto-attack through the AV tower walls on retail, I just did a few days ago lol, because auto-attack ignores LoS and always has.... But regarding pillars in arena, that is possible if you're both near one of the corners and within melee range of each other... The reason it is much more noticable here is because Taurens have much larger hitbox in TBC and Vanilla than other races, so they get longer melee range because of that.

Feel free to post videos or screenshots of things that you think are wrong on Outland currently and I will be glad to dispute it.
December 31, 2017
Jakkre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

Not sure what you mean by casting blizzard through the flood in towers. It's only possible to cast blizzard on something that you are in line of sight of... Only the center point has to meet that condition though, seeing as blizzard then is an AoE spell it could possibly be used in such a way.

On the hills are many spots where its possible to be in line with the tower room and aoeing deffenders inside of it without walking up the tower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

Many of you seem to be confusing what is considered to block line of sight and not. You just have to understand that every single object was never supposed to block line of sight and whatever you're used to from other servers needs to be forgotten.

There seem to be a misunderstanding here. I'm fully aware of how the LoS mechanics were back on retail during TBC. I played during these times and know that there was no out of line in BGs.
I'm not demanding to fix something that isn't bugged.
I'm asking for a change to the better by implementing the improved LoS mechanics that we already have on Wotlk.
If thats blizzlike or not is secondary.
I mean come on, we are talking about shooting through any kind of object here. How is it any good for the quality of pvp when ppl can do this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

This is a blizzlike server in terms game mechanics, the develepers have been very strict about that.

Yep, very strict. Thats why we have dual-spec on TBC, reworked LoS mechanics on Wotlk and Tmog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

You can't compare the Icecrown player crowd with Outland, from my experience they are two completely different communities with vastly different views.

To my experience they are the exact same community with similiar views. Many ppl that play on Wotlk have also characters on TBC.
Also I can't recall that the staff ever asked us if we want to have the improved LoS mechanics of Wotlk also on TBC, so how do u come to the conlusion that our TBC community wouldn't want them?
On the other hand I remember the suggestion thread where ppl on Wotlk were demanding to bring back the improved LoS mechanics, that got periodically removed, and many more were asking to add them also to TBC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

auto-attack ignores LoS and always has....

If that was true a enhance shami with ascendance would be able to auto attack opponents on the other side of a pillar in the arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

Feel free to post videos or screenshots of things that you think are wrong on Outland currently and I will be glad to dispute it.

It has already been cleared up that the current LoS mechanics were like this back in TBC.
So if "wrong" are by ur definition only things that are bugged then everything is fine.
December 31, 2017
Ricksyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakkre

On the hills are many spots where its possible to be in line with the tower room and aoeing deffenders inside of it without walking up the tower.

There seem to be a misunderstanding here. I'm fully aware of how the LoS mechanics were back on retail during TBC. I played during these times and know that there was no out of line in BGs.
I'm not demanding to fix something that isn't bugged.
I'm asking for a change to the better by implementing the improved LoS mechanics that we already have on Wotlk.
If thats blizzlike or not is secondary.
I mean come on, we are talking about shooting through any kind of object here. How is it any good for the quality of pvp when ppl can do this?

Yep, very strict. Thats why we have dual-spec on TBC, reworked LoS mechanics on Wotlk and Tmog.

To my experience they are the exact same community with similiar views. Many ppl that play on Wotlk have also characters on TBC.
Also I can't recall that the staff ever asked us if we want to have the improved LoS mechanics of Wotlk also on TBC, so how do u come to the conlusion that our TBC community wouldn't want them?
On the other hand I remember the suggestion thread where ppl on Wotlk were demanding to bring back the improved LoS mechanics, that got periodically removed, and many more were asking to add them also to TBC.

If that was true a enhance shami with ascendance would be able to auto attack opponents on the other side of a pillar in the arena.

It has already been cleared up that the current LoS mechanics were like this back in TBC.
So if "wrong" are by ur definition only things that are bugged then everything is fine.

"improved los mechanics" is a highly subjective term. Join a game of WSG on retail today and you will see that the tree stumps, fences and many other objects do not block line of sight. They simply never have.

What you're asking for to be implemented is a completely broken old mangos implementation of line of sight that would make even the tiniest tree, lamp post and twig block line of sight.

You also claim it doesn't change anything and only makes things better. You have to realize what making every single thing block line of sight would in practice do... It would in practice buff certain specs and classes much more than others which would make them imbalanced seeing as that wasn't the case and nothing blizzard had in mind on retail when they balanced the classes.

Also regarding Ascendance, some panda shaman spell, wouldn't be difficult for Blizzard to implement a simple los check for when that spell is active, which was probably the case as well.

You also seem to misunderstand what I mean with blizzlike game mechanics, I mean actual class, spell and gameplay mechanics. Dual-spec does not fall under that category.
January 1, 2018
Jakkre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

"improved los mechanics" is a highly subjective term. Join a game of WSG on retail today and you will see that the tree stumps, fences and many other objects do not block line of sight. They simply never have.

What you're asking for to be implemented is a completely broken old mangos implementation of line of sight that would make even the tiniest tree, lamp post and twig block line of sight.

When I play on Wotlk I see only objects blocking line of sight where it makes sense.
Small bushes, like in AB or WSG, don't block line of sight. Also I can't recall seeing tiny trees blocking line of sight, only thick once like the tree stumps in WSG.
The only things I can recall, where the line of sight blocking could be considered "too strict", are thin lamp posts and the BG banners.
Nevertheless, these are only minor details that hardly harm the gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

You also claim it doesn't change anything and only makes things better. You have to realize what making every single thing block line of sight would in practice do... It would in practice buff certain specs and classes much more than others which would make them imbalanced seeing as that wasn't the case and nothing blizzard had in mind on retail when they balanced the classes.

I don't see any game breaking class imbalance caused by the LoS mechanics that we have on wotlk. Lol.
Its much rather the LoS mechanics in TBC that lead to class imbalance and unfair gameplay.
Do u find it fair that a range class can shoot through a 10 meter thick tree stump on opponents that can't even see him? I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricksyo

You also seem to misunderstand what I mean with blizzlike game mechanics, I mean actual class, spell and gameplay mechanics. Dual-spec does not fall under that category.

Line of sight mechanics however fall under ur category and as u can see Warmane isn't that strict about following the blizzlike rule there.
They listen to the community and reapplied the, as u call it, "completely broken old line of sight" on wotlk because the community considers them as better than the LoS mechanics that blizz was using back in Wotlk.

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