Why everybody doesn't like protection warriors?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AluschI

Its like saying that WotF is going to save your *** every few seconds

---

On LOD it's perfectly realistic to expect 40k hits on average (as a DK) and it's safe to assume a DK would have around 80k HP as well, if all buffs and debuffs are applied correctly. In such cases this talent for a DK or Paladin can make a difference between a 2 hit kill and a 3 hit kill, since the hit that would otherwise kill you can be survived at a smidgen of HP.

On that boss it quite literally will save you at least a couple of times per attempt.

And unlike Shield Block, it's up 100% of the time, without any management from the player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trackerone

I don't understand why people are saying warrior is the worst tank - he is not. The point is : warrior tank is harder than other tanks mostly.You need to know encounter and when use defensive and after that ask for example for ps or sacrifice.Why ? Because warrior need to prevently use defensive cooldowns by this I mean for example - festergut got 3 stacks so he is doing a lot of damage - good warrior tank will shield wall after that last stand with enraged regeneration after that use trinkets and ask for sacri/ps - bad warrior tank will die since he will die in 3 hits .Paladin will survive because of ardent defender,dk propably too because will of necropolis but even these tanks would prolly use defensive cooldowns in that scenario.

---

Warriors aren't difficult because the class is hard, they're difficult because they're just squishier tanks. What you're describing is the most basic form of knowledge any proper tank should have - when to use cds. This isn't something exclusive to warriors, in fact, warriors don't really have any exclusive mechanics that make them more skillful to play than other tanks. At least paladins have the added complexity of raid support and DKs have their healing timing, warriors and bears mostly just sit there and spam their abilities with infinite resource but even then bears occasionally have boss downtime when they can combat ress/innervate or they can just act as semi dps in cat form. The only time you actually get to do something more than spamming as a warrior is when you're allowed to Charge/Intercept/Intervene and make proper use of Shockwave like on Anub'arak or Valithria where you get to pretend you're Sonic the Hedgehog but those fights are few and far between.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trackerone

Not to mention warrior tank is the best off tank because of SAFEGUARD talent which gives 30% reduction for 6 seconds,yes I know intervene reduces threat but in guild run this will be mostly no problem since you can salvation other dps. Intervene have 30 SECOND COOLDOWN so you can give 30% reduction with 30 second cooldown which is insane.
P.S soul reaper have 30 second cooldown so you can safeguard every reaper ^^.

---

I wouldn't say they're the best offtank but I did mention that Safeguard is one of the few reasons to use a warrior. Their main issue as an offtank is how bad their rage generation is and lack of revenge procs when they're not getting hit.

https://i.imgur.com/R4Gr3Jg.png
I think some people here still dont know how argent defender and will of the necropolis works.
Ignore the healing thing from argent defender and lets focus only on the dmg reduction. Both talents work in the same way, they dont only reduce dmg when you are below 35%

Lets make some easy calculations here, and this is true for both DK and Paladins:

A DK or Paladin tank with 100k HP
Tank takes a 80k hit (lets ignore armor reductions or whatever, its just hypothetical)
Tank will lose clean 65k HP
The remaining 15k will be reduced by 20% wich would be 3k (correct me if im wrong please)

So in the end both tanks will take a total of 77k dmg
Both talents have no CD, they are reducing dmg the entire time.

Now if any of you have been in LoD fight, you would know that tanks are constantly taking massive melee hits from LK so this talents are what makes them viable for this fights

A warrior WILL take more dmg from attacks because they dont have theese kind of constant dmg reductions, its not your fault, it is blizzards fault for making warrior tanks like this in this expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Your point is made even more worthless by the fact that situations like these don't happen in any functioning raid, you're never gonna be sitting there for 5.4 seconds with 0 healing. It just illustrates how little you understand of what you're talking about.

---

Either troll or ******ed...
There is not a single calculation here in the forum that displays actual raid situations, but yeah its me who dont get that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

I'm not going to go into too much detail about bears as I don't think they're relevant to my point about WotN but a BiS geared bear can reach around 97k hp raid buffed, which can allow it to survive 3 consecutive 36k hits with some savage defense, leader of the pack procs and maybe some random raid healing.

The only tank that will consistently die without the use of cds and no healing for such a prolonged amount of time are warriors, which is why they are considered the weakest tank.

---

Things that never happen. There will be never a situation where 3 hits accure without any healing as long as its not already a wipe. Both warrior and druid are pretty fine, because massiv overheal covers both pretty well. Wether druid nor warrior is in actual danger a druid just feels more saver because the HP drops looks less scary and druids work very well with the massiv overheal that wotlk healers provide.

There is no real case were warrior is heavily behind in tanking in a way that they are not capable of tanking. Only made up calculation trying to show different.

Warriors are a lot harder than dk my man even rotation for aggro is more complicated than dk (dk it spam on single target and death strike heart strike/rune strike).
I saw so many warriors that dont even use shield block,dont keeping thunder clap /demo shout when it's needed (or using shield block when they are not tanking the boss lmao)or bloodrage with t10 bonus ,so many warriors that dont use heroic strike and dont spam this ability as a tank,so many warriors that have no clue about defense rating ,noone of them was using safeguard as a talent.
Just because warrior dont have ardent defender or WotN don't make them very weak, that's make you can't just close your eyes and survive :P,same goes for feral druids but druids have more health.Overall if you know what to do you can easily tank as prot warrior most bosses.Overall as prot you get 5% parry and 3% more dodge rating(than dk) from talents you get % reduce dmg from defensive stance and %spell dmg reduction from improved defensive stance.

BTW ardent and WotN have a cooldown right....

As off tank you can throw shattering throw which should reduce(if dps have100% arp) boss armor to 0 with sunder stacks and fearie fire - on hero/bloodlust this should be very strong.

I'm literally crying when I see all t10 tank prot warrior using glyph of bloodrage minor,use your brain much?

Also when you're not tanking at the first second boss you will have not rage and you will not kept aggro but as dk you need to click IT and boss is yours ^^.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaixzElder

Lets make some easy calculations here, and this is true for both DK and Paladins:

A DK or Paladin tank with 100k HP
Tank takes a 80k hit (lets ignore armor reductions or whatever, its just hypothetical)
Tank will lose clean 65k HP
The remaining 15k will be reduced by 20% wich would be 3k (correct me if im wrong please)

So in the end both tanks will take a total of 77k dmg

Now if any of you have been in LoD fight, you would know that tanks are constantly taking massive melee hits from LK so this talents are what makes them viable for this fights

A warrior WILL take more dmg from attacks because they dont have theese kind of constant dmg reductions, its not your fault, it is blizzards fault for making warrior tanks like this in this expansion.

---

And a dmg reduction of 3k is woth what in the end?
The next hit wont be 2,9k but again 80k. Luckily that healers are capable of healing a lot more than 100k in between 2 hits.

Lets Say:
A DK and Pala with 100k HP, a Druid with 120K and a warrior with 90K HP.
80K DMG
DK and Pala take 77k, Druid 80k and the disabled warrior 85k
Dead tanks without heal: DK, Druid, warrior
Dead tanks with heal: none

Its like number crunching about 1% less dmg intake. During a fight 1% does not save you in any situation, only effecting overall data to show of.
tanks that are able to tank lk25hc do not die with 1% or 5% over death, they die with something like 25-40% over death. This problem is not solved by going from lk ready gear to bis gear.
Healer just feel saver when the tank HP is going from 100% to 30% and not from 100% to 10% all the time. But this feeling is not going to save a tank if healing is missing.

All you have to do is look at the talent trees, war is far less impressive. Nearly everything a DK gets is useful including the damage talents because they use those to heal themselves more. Meanwhile half the war talents are damage/stun related and not very useful. The only thing that really catches your eye is Last stand.

That was just 3k from that hypothetical case. If you take a larger hit you will reduce more, and 3k can be the difference between tank dying or not. Also are you implying that reduced damage is not worth? Id say everything counts, also I thought we were talking specifically from tanking point of view, not healers, as in what can tanks do on their own.

If warrior is your favorite class and you want to play prot warrior thats completly fine, but blizzard either made them underpowered on this expansion or made the other tanks better. Its not a matter of personal opinion, its just how blizzard made things back then

"Tank defencive cooldowns and passives:



Death Knight
Deffencive Cooldowns:
[Icebound Fortitude] - 30%+ (50% as tank) Damage Reduction. 12sec Duration, 2min CD.
[Army of the Dead] - XX% (Dodge% + Parry%) Damage Reducion, cant parry or dodge an attack while casting. 5sec Duration, 10min CD.
[Vampiric Blood] - Grants 15% of max HP and 35% increase of all Healing effects on u. 15sec Duration, 1min CD.
[Blood Tap] (4/5 T10) - 12% Damage Reduction. 12sec Duration, 1min CD.
[Anti-Magic Shell] - 75% Magic DMG apsorb (max 50% of total DK HP). 5sec Duration, 45sec CD.
Deffencive Abilities:
[Rune Tap] - 20% of Max HP heal. Instant Cast, 30sec CD.
[Death Strike] - 10% of Max HP heal. Instant Cast, Avrg of 5+sec CD.
[Death Pact] - 40% of Max HP heal. Instant Cast, 2min CD.
Passives
[Will of the Necropolis] - Damage that would take u, or taken below 35% HP is reduced by 15%.
[Frost Presence] - 8% Damage Reduction.
[Blade Barrier] - 5% Damage Reduction.
[Spell Deflection] - Chance to reduce Direct Damage spell (Breath, Infest, Blistering Cold, Shadowbolt,...) by 45%.

Total of 13% Passive Damage Reduction.

Supportive Spells/Auras/Buffs
[Abomination's Might] - 10% attack power to all group/raid members.
[Improved Icy Talons] - 20% melee haste to all group/raid members.
[Mark of Blood] - 4% of max HP heal after getting hit by a target with mark (20stacks).
[Hysteria] - Increases Physical DMG by aditional 20%. For 1 group/raid member.
[Horn of Winter]



Paladin
Deffencive Cooldowns:
[Divine Protection] - 50% Damage Reduction. 12sec Duration, 2min CD.
[Hand of Salvation] - Glyphed. 20% Damage Reduction. 10sec Duration, 2min CD.
[Divine Guardian] - 20% Damage Reduction. 6sec Duration, 2min CD.
[Divine Plea] (4/5 T10) - 12% Dodge Chance. 10sec Duration, 1min CD.
[Ardent Defender] - Passive. If killed causes to be healed to 30%+ Health (based on Def rating). 2min CD.
Deffencive Abilities:
[Sacred Shield] - Apsorbing Shield. 1min Duration, no CD.
[Lay on Hands] - 100% Health Heal, and 20% Damage Reduction with talents. Instant Cast/15sec Duration, 11-15min CD.
Passives
[Ardent Defender] - Damage that would take u, or taken below 35% HP is reduced by 20%.
[Improved Righteous Fury] - 6% Damage Reduction.
[Glyph of Divine Plea] - 3% Damage Reduction.
[Shield of the Templar] - 3% Damage Reduction.
[Guarded by the Light] - 6% Reduced Spell Damage Taken.

Total of 12% Passive Damage Reduction.

Supportive Spells/Auras/Buffs
[Improved Devotion Aura] - Increased Healing effects by 6%.
[Divine Sacrifice], [Hand of Sacrifice], [Hand of Protection], [Aura Mastery], [Hand of Freedom], [Cleanse].
[Vindication], [Heart of the Crusader]
[Blessing of Sanctuary] / [Blessing of Kings] / [Blessing of Might] / [Blessing of Wisdom]



From my pov, DK as Main tank and Paladin as Off tank is the best combo out there, especialy for fight like Lich King. With **** ton of defencive cooldowns and awesome suport from a prot paladin, DK can solo tank LK in p2 and p3 easy. Just time ur cooldowns corectly and ask for some help from the Paladin.



Druid
Deffencive Cooldowns:
[Barkskin] - 20% Damage Reduction. 12sec Duration, 1min CD.
[Survival Instincts] - Grants 30% of max HP (45% if Glyphed). 20sec Duration, 3min CD.
[Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration] - Healing effects on the druid are stronger for 20%. 10sec Duration, 3min CD.
[Enrage] (4/5) - 12% Damage Reduction. 10sec Duration, 1min CD.
Passives
Largest Health Pool in the game (i consider this to be a Passive advantage over other classes, since its not a small amount).
[Protector of the Pack] - 12% Damage Reduction.
[Savage Defense] - When u criticaly hit while in Bear Form, Grants a Shield apsorbing DMG equal to 25% of total Attack Power.

Total of 12% Passive Damage Reduction.

Supportive Spells/Auras/Buffs
[Leader of the Pack] - 5% increase to Ranged and Melee Crit chance.
[Innervate] - 225% of Druids Base mana over 10sec. 3min CD.
[Rebirth] - Combat Rez. 10min CD.
[Faerie Fire] - 5% Armor Reduction.
[Demoralizing Roar], [Remove Curse], [Cyclone](LDW Mind Controls)
[Mark of the Wild]



Warrior
Deffencive Cooldowns:
[Shield Wall] - 60% Damage Reduction (40% if Glyphed). 12sec Duration, 4min CD (2min CD if Glyphed).
[Shield Block] - 100% Block Chance. 10sec Duration, 40sec CD.
[Last Stand] - Grants 30% of max HP. 20sec Duration, 3min CD (2min CD if Glyphed)
[Bloodrage] (4/5 T10) - 20% of maximum HP as apsorb Shield. 1min CD. (worst 4/5 t10 bonus ever invented)
Deffencive Abilities:
[Spell Reflection] - Reflects the next spell cast on warrior. 10sec CD.
Passives
[Defensive Stance] - 10% Damage Reduction.
[Improved Defensive Stance] - 6% Spell Damage Reduction.

Total of 10% Passive Damage Reduction.

Supportive Spells/Auras/Buffs
[Vigilance] - Player with this Buff gets 3% DMG reduction and 10% Threat Transfered to Warrior.
[Intervene] - Cast on a friendly player. Intercept the next attack against that player.
[Safeguard] - Damage Taken reduced by 30% for 6 sec on the target of Intervene.
[Improved Spell Reflection] - 4 closest party Members also get Spell Reflection.
[Sunder Armor] - 1/5 Stacks 4% Armor Reduction on target. 5/5 20% Armor Reduction on target.
[Commanding Shout] / [Battle Shout], [Demoralizing Shout], [Piercing Howl]



If i made a mistake or forgot something correct me please.
But all in all, u can see why DKs and Paladins have Advantage over other two classes i guess.
Ferals are great cos they have **** ton of Health. When it comes to defencives, they are still weak compared to DKs and Paladins. Bear tanks are kinda dependant on how good healers are, if not topped before taking next big hit, they will die.

Its not that Warrior is broken, its just as DarkenedHue said, its "class isn't as well-equipped at dealing with extremely hard-hitting bosses as other tank specs", especialy in 3.3.5a patch. U can make it work, and test ur healers a lot, but chances of getting killed (oneshoted aswell) are higher compared to DK and Prot Paladin, and even Ferals."

Rest of the discusion on the same topic over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN, can be found here: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=352313&page=2

FUN FACT:
This is WOTLK 3.3.5a, its not gona change.
FUN FACT:
Warriors wont get better. EVER!
FUN FACT:
No matter how much u wish Warriors to be good, they are simply WORSE tanks when compared to DKs, Ferals and Prot Paladins.

Is Ghostcrawler playing on Warmane now?

Spoiler: Show

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AluschI

Most tank death in icc comes with something like 20k-30k dmg over death, wether WotF or minor passiv raid heal is covering this up.

---

https://i.imgur.com/VjIXkLl.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AluschI

And a dmg reduction of 3k is woth what in the end?

---

https://i.imgur.com/TlpVDe6.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AluschI

Tank with 65k HP and 30k hits incoming. Only tank that is able to survive 3 hits is a pala, druid, warrior and dk are all dead. .

---

Get this guy onto the QA team ASAP.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....ection+warrior

Check the pic provided by VapeNaysh420.

1) Warriors have weaker passive mitigation compared to paladins in both physical and magical damage. They have weaker physical vs dks and druids but higher magical.
2) They have no equivalent to WotN/Ardent (which both basically translate into a bigger healthpool and the second acts as an extra life).
3) They have absolutely no raid wide dmg reduction cooldown, paladins have a HUGE advantage over warriors here when it comes to the role of an OT.
4) Their 4pT10 is weaker compared to dk/druid one.
5) Compared to the cooldowns a dk has, the warrior ones are laughable.
6) Smaller hp modifiers.
7) As already mentioned above from one of the other forum users prot warrior block (while being higher in value as an average) is far less reliable than paladin one. Druids have their Savage Defense which can pmuch be considered a block mechanic and dks try to compensate with healing.

Are they unplayable? NO.
Are other tanks better than them? Obviously yes, other tanks have an advantage.

What I'm trying to get across is that this discussion is absolutely pointless. The only people saying that prot warriors are in some way superior to the other tanks when it comes to the end-game raids are people that are clueless or simply refuse to acknowledge the truth. To illustrate this I'll try to give an example.

Let's say that you wanted to see if two real numbers were equal. Is 3.14 the same as 3.141592? Obviously not. Is 0 the same as 0.00000001? Same thing. They're close to one another. In maths one would say that if the absolute value of (x-y) < E (where E is some very small number and x and y are real numbers) then for all intents and purposes x and y are the same. Would this hold true if we compare the strengths of prot warriors to those of the other tanks in the end-game?

Spoiler: Show

No.

We all get that you guys are some fanboys of the class and have your preferences, that's perfectly fine. Nobody is disagreeing with you in regards to the viability of prot warriors, the OP asked if warriors are broken and why people don't like them. I believe he got his answers so could you stop with your moronic posts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AluschI

Either troll or ******ed...
There is not a single calculation here in the forum that displays actual raid situations, but yeah its me who dont get that point.



Things that never happen. There will be never a situation where 3 hits accure without any healing as long as its not already a wipe. Both warrior and druid are pretty fine, because massiv overheal covers both pretty well. Wether druid nor warrior is in actual danger a druid just feels more saver because the HP drops looks less scary and druids work very well with the massiv overheal that wotlk healers provide.

There is no real case were warrior is heavily behind in tanking in a way that they are not capable of tanking. Only made up calculation trying to show different.

---

I don't think you're in any position to be calling me names when you've been shown to have 0 clue of what you're talking about multiple times in this thread, by multiple people and type like a third grader to boot. You thought giving Vigilance to a protection paladin was a good idea. You've claimed that you've never seen tanks drop below 35% with suggests you've only done normals. You fail to understand how talents like WotN can be the difference between life or death even when it has been explained to you multiple times in the most potato way possible. You disregard individual tank mechanics that render your points moot like DK healing and druid hp. You misrepresent others by saying nonsensical things like "Following this logic tanks should be pretty much unkillable" when no one ever claimed that. And you used that flawed "calculation" in support of your nonsense only to be shown to be completely wrong again using your own method, at which point you turn around and go "Yeah, well that situation is never going to happen anyway!". No ****, Sherlock. Why would you ever use it as an example then? You just roasted yourself and basically confirmed what I said - that 3 hit with no healing example is completely worthless along with any point you were trying to make with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gnimo

Passives
[Ardent Defender] - Damage that would take u, or taken below 35% HP is reduced by 20%.
[Improved Righteous Fury] - 6% Damage Reduction.
[Glyph of Divine Plea] - 3% Damage Reduction.
[Shield of the Templar] - 3% Damage Reduction.
[Guarded by the Light] - 6% Reduced Spell Damage Taken.

Total of 12% Passive Damage Reduction.

---

Shouldn't GBoS count for this too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaixzElder

Shouldn't GBoS count for this too?

---

GBOS doesn't stack with Renewed Hope, so pretty much every tank will have it.

OK but not what I asked