Discussion about SWP.

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Originally Posted by Qitarah

Not like they can go and add new mechanics.

Tuning HP up/tweaking enrage timers is certainly needed. Bosses will just flop over with minimal effort other wise.

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Sure thing, but assuming the players are adequately skilled (such is expected of the top-tier players anyways), the only change in those sorts of numbers in the vast majority of cases is a gear-check. Which means if the gear those guilds have already farmed from the previous tier isn't enough, then the barrier to entry is simply a time-gate of farming the bosses available to them in the new tier and getting that gear to further push their throughput. The skill barrier has the intended effect on lower-tier players, sure, but that's about it.

I think a lot of people are underestimating the difficulty of swp after clearing bt, I can assure you a lot of guilds that clear bt right now may reform or even disband after struggling on the first 3 bosses and even if some may get through at some point and finally stay in front of M'uru, well enjoy :>

Lol 20k stomp, no tank would survive this. It already does 20k before mitigation and reduces your armor by 50%. Meanwhile, youre still getting hit by his main hand and offhand that don't suffer dual wield penalty and he has sunwell radiance.

The only real way to buff bosses is to use mechanics from "nerfed" version of the fight (such as solarians old bomb versions, or alar meteor dive), or to buff HP/damage

Pre-nerf versions should definately be considered.

The thing with sunwell is most bosses dont have prenerf things that make them harder, only really like KJ and Muru. most of the changes were just bug fixes, but they should definitely buff hp of the bosses.

I actually really liked some aspects of what Warmane did to increase the difficulty of Black Temple. Swapping out Illidan's shadow demons to a pack of Usain Bolt was, and still is, pure dog****. Another bad example is the increased size of bomb explosions in ZA. But the lowered enrage timers is an idea I really like. It has the same effect as increasing boss HP without making the fight drawn out and boring. I hope to see similar difficulty tweaks in SWP.
If warmane implements Sunwell Radiance as it's intended to be tank damage should be good. If you stack it up with lowered enrage timers, guilds will not be able to stack healers and thus the damage will be relevant.
Just my 2 cents and guesstimate :)

For the most part the only buffs going in should be boss HP.

Sunwell was hard when it came out back in 2008. It was a huge step up in terms of difficulty. Instead of raid instances having mostly easy bosses, a few semi challenges and one hard boss (tk/ssc for example) its just had hard bosses, harder bosses and really really hard bosses. Numbers were tuned very high and some mechanics were pretty hard. There is no doubt sunwell changed raiding.

That being said it was 2008, the game got way more complicated and there were far more difficult encounters (technically as well as tighter tuned) going forward. Obviously people got better as the years progressed.

My point is, sunwell was hard for us in 2008. Sure its still gonna be a challenge but we know all the tactics, we have people who have already cleared it and know what to expect and in the 10 years since its release people got a whole lot more knowledgeable about the game and a lot better.

Hp Buffs are certainly needed.

I still cannot fathom why boss health buffs or shortening of enrage timers are the only means people can imagine increased difficulty. You turn it into an attempt at a speed kill, so what? It might take a little extra effort to kill such a boss, but is it more fun? I'd say no. Especially when you consider that speed kills are part of the enjoyment that you're supposed to get out of progressing beyond the boss in question.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

I still cannot fathom why boss health buffs or shortening of enrage timers are the only means people can imagine increased difficulty. You turn it into an attempt at a speed kill, so what? It might take a little extra effort to kill such a boss, but is it more fun? I'd say no. Especially when you consider that speed kills are part of the enjoyment that you're supposed to get out of progressing beyond the boss in question.

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simple answer
cuz all another tunning will be considered as bug

hard think about something other, when you nerf Gurtogg Bloodboil on second day...1st version was very good

Why do you feel Sunwell needs to be buffed? On retail it was the first genuinely hard raid of the expansion, and it released about a year after Black Temple, unlike all the previous raid releases on Warmane people won't be going in largely overgeared, but instead at intended gear levels. Makes little sense to buff Sunwell beyond what it was on retail, Muru killed enough guilds as it is and Black Temple/Hyjal were family holiday parks compared to Sunwell.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

I still cannot fathom why boss health buffs or shortening of enrage timers are the only means people can imagine increased difficulty. You turn it into an attempt at a speed kill, so what? It might take a little extra effort to kill such a boss, but is it more fun? I'd say no. Especially when you consider that speed kills are part of the enjoyment that you're supposed to get out of progressing beyond the boss in question.

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In light of what I've said above, the only way to increase difficulty without changing the fights is by increasing the numbers. Sunwell was notoriously hard specifically because of the fact that it was very tightly tuned, the mechanics themselves were never especially difficult but the bosses were tuned in such a way that heavy min-maxing on healing/dps was required to overcome bosses, of course until your raid had sufficient Sunwell gear to ease that strain.

Looking at TBC as a whole, mechanically it's very simple compared to raiding in later expansions. Without sufficient number tuning you're not left with much to create difficulty unless you change the fights, and even then you're limited in scope due to class design.

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Originally Posted by Qitarah

My point is, sunwell was hard for us in 2008. Sure its still gonna be a challenge but we know all the tactics, we have people who have already cleared it and know what to expect and in the 10 years since its release people got a whole lot more knowledgeable about the game and a lot better.

Hp Buffs are certainly needed.

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It will still be hard in 2018, most of the players here were likely not playing WoW in 2008, hell a great deal of players I've met in game are too young to have played in 2008. While the availability of information has improved the general playerbase I don't think the skill level at the top has changed much at all, only the available information.

That may be different in retail where fights are far more complex and demand more from players (therefor driving improvement), but Warmane doesn't have the access to large pools of world class players that retail has, even the best guilds here are not remotely as skilled overalll as say SK gaming was in 2008, they just have access to more complete information.

Sure there are plenty of good players, and access to information is considerable... But you can't overtune bosses that literally killed many high end guilds in 2008 just to satisify a few players who want greater challenge... All it will do is artificially increase progression time by requiring more farming, and ultimately kill more guilds in the process.

will you nerf the actual content with sunwell release? thats an important thing to know I think :)
just to say, i'm not asking a nerf, on the contrary, I'm for a pre nerf content because its an old expansion already farmed from years, put a nerf on it just gona kill it I think x)

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Originally Posted by Mulleasdfg

Swapping out Illidan's shadow demons to a pack of Usain Bolt was, and still is, pure dog****. Another bad example is the increased size of bomb explosions in ZA.

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"and still is"... but that bug was fixed months ago.

The bomb explosions here are not larger than retail.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

I still cannot fathom why boss health buffs or shortening of enrage timers are the only means people can imagine increased difficulty. You turn it into an attempt at a speed kill, so what? It might take a little extra effort to kill such a boss, but is it more fun? I'd say no. Especially when you consider that speed kills are part of the enjoyment that you're supposed to get out of progressing beyond the boss in question.

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Because it's the easiest thing that devs can change that definitely would not break a fight. Private server custom changes too often just break fights instead of making themharder.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

Because it's the easiest thing that devs can change that definitely would not break a fight. Private server custom changes too often just break fights instead of making themharder.

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If that's all they did and didn't adjust timers, it'd break more fights than you think apparently.

Long fights better, need more time keep concentrate...cost of any mistake rising up.

Only my opinion, but i want big hp increase and little enrage timer increase.

sry bad english.