Video. My attempt on Lich King as Balance.

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Originally Posted by Firzenn

Yeah, duh, although it needed to be said apparently. Quite condescending..

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No it doesn't. I'm well aware of what optimising dps is and how to achieve it. The condescending part was brought up by your original post. At any rate,

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Originally Posted by Firzenn

You are partially right, these things might not actually matter when you're playing with 30% buff, 6k3 average gs and 5 Smournes, but then again, if thats the case, 3% avoidance doesn't matter either so what's your point ?
Just because the boss becomes trivial at a certain level of gear and with the oh so helpful ICC buff doesn't mean that there is not a right and a wrong way to do it.

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I never discussed if there's a 30% buff or not. What I said is exactly this,
"It doesn't justify the % hit chance drop unless the raid is severely lacking that dps drop which in most cases it isn't."
I'd understand if one's raid comp needs the extra dps of moonkins that badly, but in his case it's definitely not so.

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Originally Posted by Firzenn

People actually working on progress runs (like the original poster of this thread who just achieved NM and might soon try his luck in HM) need those little optimizations and the extra-dps against LK HC will actually matter.

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3% miss chance will matter on heroic LK a lot more than that extra dps.

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Originally Posted by Firzenn

And I will repeat myself: 3% avoidance is not even quality-of-life tier, as a healer I'd much rather have my guild push LK faster thanks to extra-dps, rather than have the boss have 3% chance to miss.
The real struggle for progress is mana management on LK hero, not keeping the tanks alive (especially in 30% buff), and nothing helps mana-management more than having your group killing the boss faster

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You're underrating the effect it has.

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Originally Posted by NainVert

Well it is true that placing Insect Swarm will reduce the chance of the tank getting 3 hits in a row from 21.6% to 18.5%, that's around a 15% reduction, which is not bad, we do agree.

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cool

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Originally Posted by NainVert

LK phase 2, you are better of nuking a Valkyr / 3 Valkyrs + LK than putting an Insect Swarm on the boss, you'll help your tank much more. Besides, you are a class without any ramp-up time so you're best at this job. And in 25man, you're also one of the best cleaver in game, so you'd better cleave hard, as it'll help your tank more by freeing healers faster and by making sure they don't get dropped off the edge. You're also the one providing the 13% magical damage on the Valkyrs if your UH DK is grabbed, so you really don't want do waste time with that IS.

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I agree on this. Grabbed people are a priority. Valks are generally a priority on this fight. Sometimes you might not be able to keep IS up and that's ok, but not putting it up when it's actually possible isn't something a moonkin should be doing.

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Originally Posted by NainVert

LK phase 3, all healers are spamming the tank like crazy, he's the only one taking damage, he shouldn't die. Better nuke the boss hard to beat the enrage. Besides, you'll be running from side to side so you'll have some IS uptime.

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And yet he can die. If you can sacrifice a small amount of personal dps to help with that it's something which in my mind should be done.

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Originally Posted by NainVert

Lordearon 25HC, and tanks don't die! Ok, maybe I'm far away from the reality of PU groups. So go for full IS uptime if you don't trust your tanks and healers, else don't.

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Good and I've been doing some 0% on IC. I'd say that tanks die. Having the debuffs helps them not die.

We're running in circles, it all boils down to

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

Healers doing a decent job isn't an argument

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and such

>3% miss chance will matter on heroic LK a lot more than that extra dps.

disagreed

You simply don't trust your heals/tanks enough

Spoiler: Show

FYI, in 25HC on Lordaeron, LK 25HC is a DPS race to beat the berserk timer. Even with a raid near BiS gear. It will not be such a race once the full raid is BiS geared, but will always be tight. Hence maxing out DPS is a thing that matters.

The point was made, your are probably helping the healers more by maxing out your DPS and making fights and phases shorter than by providing full IS uptime. They'll be spamming the tank no matter and waste their mana in the same way, and either way tanks will not die unless a mistake is made (and amongst the mistakes are the fact that a phase could be too long, forcing healers into conservative mana usage).

Good Moonkins are scarce because of the fact that it is incredibly hard to be a competitive DPS, hence you'll always have the non-rewarding feeling that your DPS is low. For a personal self-rewarding feeling, just start your own hunt towards maximum usefull personal DPS* while you are not putting the raid at risk, of course. When you will be in a guild that wants serious progress on10HC, then sure thing go ahead and use IS if it's required from you.

*usefull DPS means killing targets that need to die and not greeding on AOEing things that no one cares about.

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Originally Posted by Firzenn

>3% miss chance will matter on heroic LK a lot more than that extra dps.

disagreed

You simply don't trust your heals/tanks enough

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Right.

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Originally Posted by NainVert

Spoiler: Show

FYI, in 25HC on Lordaeron, LK 25HC is a DPS race to beat the berserk timer. Even with a raid near BiS gear. It will not be such a race once the full raid is BiS geared, but will always be tight. Hence maxing out DPS is a thing that matters.

The point was made, your are probably helping the healers more by maxing out your DPS and making fights and phases shorter than by providing full IS uptime. They'll be spamming the tank no matter and waste their mana in the same way, and either way tanks will not die unless a mistake is made (and amongst the mistakes are the fact that a phase could be too long, forcing healers into conservative mana usage).

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You seem to forget that the OP doesn't play on Lord. The guy asked if he's doing something wrong. Keepin IS up, so long as he's not spamming it constantly, isn't wrong. In fact it's the right thing to do if there isn't a higher priority mechanic he needs to adhere to, such as valks that you already mentioned or, alternatively, an extreme need for extra dps.

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Originally Posted by NainVert

For a personal self-rewarding feeling, just start your own hunt towards maximum usefull personal DPS* while you are not putting the raid at risk, of course.

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Omitting a good boost to a tank's survivability which is, by extension, the raid's survivability is putting the raid at risk. Hence why I argue for keeping IS up, instead of pursuing personal DPS when you don't need it (his case on IC, not yours on Lord).

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Originally Posted by NainVert

Itemization is : spellpower > haste > crit >> spirit > intel. Prefer ilvl 264 crit/haste items over 277 crit/spirit or haste/spirit items.

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Most sims would place haste/crit at about 60% of SP (point-per-point), depending on your gear, with haste pulling slightly ahead. But for the sake of argument let's take them as equal and have them be worth 70% of SP (overvalued). Spirit would be worth around 33%.

Comparisons:
using Normal Choker (264) vs HC Bone Sentinel's Amulet
-13 SP = 13 EP
-7 haste = 7*.7 = 4.9 EP
-68 spirit = 68*.33 = 22.44 EP
total EP loss = 40.3
+57 crit = 57*.7 = 39.9 EP gain

-9 int = a bit more than 1 EP - would pretty much make up for the worse socket
+better socket

Pretty much about the same if we overvalue crit/haste.

using Plague Scientist's Boots Normal vs HC Boots of Unnatural Growth
- 74 spirit = 74*.33 = 24.42 EP
- 26 crit = 26*.7 = 18.2 EP
- 18 SP = 18 EP
total 60.62 EP loss
+80 haste = 80*.7 = 56 EP gain
You also get a better socket and some int with the HC feet.

It works out similarly with the belts etc.

Just some constructive criticism about that part, good read otherwise, even if I won't fully agree with the IS part. Although to add on that - not using IS before solar can be a DPS gain if you'll HAVE to move during that solar eclipse and thus having something at least a bit relevant to do during that movement rather than clipping it or so.

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Originally Posted by GaryOwlman

Just some constructive criticism about that part, good read otherwise, even if I won't fully agree with the IS part. Although to add on that - not using IS before solar can be a DPS gain if you'll HAVE to move during that solar eclipse and thus having something at least a bit relevant to do during that movement rather than clipping it or so.

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Placing IS before a Solar is most likely a DPS loss, the IS simply doesn't cut it. However if you want to/are required to maintain a 100% uptime on IS, jut refresh when it fades and use the GCD to move.

Concerning Itemization, let's look at the the stats: Boots & Neck:

• - 80 SP (counting spell power from spirit)
• +73 haste
• +31 crit

Stat budget is almost similar but: you lose 80 spellpower to gain around 0.7% crit and 2.2% haste (at 1200 haste rating this is a relative 1.63% increase). Let's look at the haste alone: 2% haste at 1200 haste rating means that you will casting 1.63% more Starfires, which is equivalent to a flat 1.63% increase in your Starfire damage. At 5.000 spell power, you deal 9750 normal hits and 20330 average crits, and with 90% crit chance (because the vast majority of the time you are under an eclipse), 1.63% is 0.0163*(9.750* 0.1 + 20.330*0.9) = 314 damage per cast. On the other hand, the spell power coefficient of Starfire is 120%, talents taken into account, and you have a 10% damage increase from talents (Moonfury), another 6% (Earth and Moon), yet another 13% (Earth and Moon) and finally an extra 4% (from Master Shapeshifter), meaning that these 80 spellpower will amount to 80 * 1.2 * 1.04 * 1.13 * 1.06 * 1.10 * (0.1 + 0.9*2) = 250 damage increase on the Starfire (I assume multiplicative bonuses, I do not know if they are additive or multiplicative - assumming multiplicative yields higher values). I have not taken into account the effect of the meta gem and of the 4PT10 set bonus in either cases, which would have increased the value of a critical strike by 3% and further 7% . For Starfire, haste seems to provide a much higher damage increase than spellpower, and will also double-dip from the 2PT10 set bonus: more casts implies higher Omen of Doom uptime. Under heroism/bloodlust, when you are spamming Starfire regardless outside of Lunar, the values are 262 (haste) and 210 (spellpower). Haste over spirit is the big winner for that one.

The 0.7% increase in critical strike chance yields a 0.84% damage increase (from 3% meta and 7% 4PT10 bonus). It also provides higher Eclipse uptime, and higher Nature's Grace uptime. At 5.000 spell power, base Wrath damage is around 5400 (without Eclipse), so 0.7% Crit translates to around 64 bonus damage on Wrath with Eclipse and 45 (without Eclipse) For Starfall, 10 stars will deal 58.266 damage per cast so the crit translates to (58530-58.266) = 264.

Wrath gains 177 bonus damage from that 80 spellpower under Eclipse and 126 without, and absolutely nothing from haste. Starfall gains 754 damage per use (assumning single target: 10 stars), more if 2 targets. Critical strike rating beats spirit flat out for Starfall, but is a clear looser versus spell power.

Therefore the damage gain over a typical full rotation (around 9 eclipsed starfires, 1 non-eclipsed, 13 eclipsed wraths and 6 non-eclipsed and 1 starfall):

• 2% Haste + 0.7 % Crit: 9 * 314 + 1 * 262 + 13*64 + 5 * 45 + 1 * 264 = + 4409 = (119 DPS) extra damage per rotation (on top of increased Eclipse uptime, increased Nature's Grace uptime and increased Omen of Doom uptime)
• 80 Spellpower: 9 * 250 + 1 * 210 + 13* 177 + 5 * 126 + 754 = + 6145 (166 DPS) (no further increases)

The raw difference between haste/crit 264 boots and neck versus spirit 277 boots and neck is a mere 47 DPS. On the other hand, haste makes you favor even more Starfire usage (under Bloodlust / Heroism as well as under Power Infusion) . On top of that, trinket procs are not benefitting from spellpower from gear, but are benefiting from extra haste and extra crit. When trinkets, as well as the Eclipse, Nature's Grace and Omen of Doom uptime, are taken into account the 264 items are probably the winner unless the fight includes multiple targets that must be killed (LK transition phases for instance, but not LK phase 1 nor phase 2 in heroic mode, but phase 2 in normal mode). The make or break for spell power is the massive benefit of Starfall: how much will it do, and how much usefull the stars are (are they hitting targets that we don't care about actively killing?)?. Else crit and haste are the clear winner.

Of course, these are very rough estimates, reality will differ. Knowing that both sets are super duper close, pick up what you have access to.