Frost DK early PvE guide: pre bis & tier 7.

There is definitely a lot of fantastic leather items to consider. But since the server duration is short and most of the loot is from hardmodes - I don't see us completing any of these sets before ToC hits. In my guild for examples, there is no way I will be allowed near that gear until everyone else on the priority list has it.

Also, I think posting videos of hitting a dummy for 5 minutes is a counterproductive effort. All out gear sets are most likely different and it would be hard to accurately estimate anything of value. Reason being, there is like zero bosses in Ulduar where you will be standing 100% still and hitting a boss like a dummy to maximise output.

What I will share is some experience from Lorrdaeron when it was progressing through Ulduar: We had 2 active frost DKs in the roster. So at the end of multiple discussions similar to this we decided to split up into 2 builds:

DK1: Blood subspec, 2set, stacking str > haste > crit. Agility ring/neck.
DK2 (me): Unholy subspec, 4set, all arpen offset pieces, some agility pieces that gave arp (a believe rings).

When we had our sets at around 60% completion, I was always behind on DPS. That stood true for more static fights like XT or very mobile fights like Freya. It got to a noticeable gap to complete out-performing. First thing I did was change to blood subspec as it was the least investment. That made a dent, but still not enough. Eventually, like I mentioned in my first reply I had to drop down to a 2set and re-gear almost entirely. At full BiS we were doing with 1-2% of eachother's DPS, sometimes I would do more, sometimes not.

TL:DR - From experience, I choose blood subspec while ignoring arpen until TOC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gnimo

if you can, with the similar gear score, weapons and stat value from your itemisation, do more dps/dmg while playing Blood sub spec, please do post it here for others to see, since I can not get used to Blood sub spec rotation (or I am doing it right, but it feels wrong because its a lot easyer than the usual unholy sub spec thing I do), and I might be doing something wrong (I would try and practice more on it, but I don't have a lot of free time for it).
Maybe even recording a video of a 5min dummy run would be a good idea as a guide to everyone else playing on a similar server like Frostmourne.

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I saw a guy on frostmourne with around 500 less gs than me and blood subspec toping dps meters on a OS 25 run, and im 4.3 gs, then i tried blood subspec and i couldnt do ****, it also felt wrong pressing buttons lol. My rotation with uh subspec was perfect tho, still he did about 300~ more dps, i wish i could have prints and data but thats all out of my memorie. A dummy run suggested by Gnimo would be very useful

I agree that blood subspec is more DPS at this stage of the server, mostly because of the huge AP buff from Bladed Armor. What do you guys think of 10/54/7 spec, or even 12/52/7? You basically drop Dark Conviction and 2 points from Black Ice in exchange for 3 Obli rotation.
On some fights this spec worked better for me in Ulduar, although the -5% crit chance is quite noticeable especially after losing T7 2 pc bonus.

ehhh, yall just wrong. In full ulduar BiS, UH subspec pulls through by a few dozen dps. Even when you're like halfway to BiS, it still does more, and it feels nicer to play with longer diseases.

also this is the BiS list from many sims. For the UH subspec vs. blood subspec, I simmed it on simcraft with 10k+ iterations many many times, so if you want me to post the sims, i'd be more than happy to

https://gyazo.com/27c129ff2d521100fa0a35a84a4718db

thorim helm, frigid strength, tier(shoulders, chest, gloves, and legs), algalon 25 cape, armbands of bedlam, IC HM belt, sabatons of lifeless night, seal of betrayed king, bladebearer's, greatness, comet's trail, double carress of insanity, and sigil of awareness.

rawr has inflated dps numbers, but the gear is still accurate when comparing it proportionally vs. other gear. if you want accurate dps numbers, i'd recommend simcraft. rawr is better for simply checking which gear is better over other gear.

this is my current char

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...mourne/summary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gingir

also this is the BiS list from many sims. For the UH subspec vs. blood subspec, I simmed it on simcraft with 10k+ iterations many many times, so if you want me to post the sims, i'd be more than happy to

https://gyazo.com/27c129ff2d521100fa0a35a84a4718db

thorim helm, frigid strength, tier(shoulders, chest, gloves, and legs), algalon 25 cape, armbands of bedlam, IC HM belt, sabatons of lifeless night, seal of betrayed king, bladebearer's, greatness, comet's trail, double carress of insanity, and sigil of awareness.

rawr has inflated dps numbers, but the gear is still accurate when comparing it proportionally vs. other gear. if you want accurate dps numbers, i'd recommend simcraft. rawr is better for simply checking which gear is better over other gear.

this is my current char

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...mourne/summary

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Have to agree with the above. At a certain point, around 4.6k GS in my case, UH sub-spec started pulling ahead on damage quite a bit. My gear is not quite that polished, but close enough to it. It's seems once you get enough crit/haste - it becomes worth. And the 3 Obli rotation is insane quality of life.

I just tested on bosses and dummies, no sims involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kapii

There is definitely a lot of fantastic leather items to consider. But since the server duration is short and most of the loot is from hardmodes - I don't see us completing any of these sets before ToC hits. In my guild for examples, there is no way I will be allowed near that gear until everyone else on the priority list has it.

Also, I think posting videos of hitting a dummy for 5 minutes is a counterproductive effort. All out gear sets are most likely different and it would be hard to accurately estimate anything of value. Reason being, there is like zero bosses in Ulduar where you will be standing 100% still and hitting a boss like a dummy to maximise output.

What I will share is some experience from Lorrdaeron when it was progressing through Ulduar: We had 2 active frost DKs in the roster. So at the end of multiple discussions similar to this we decided to split up into 2 builds:

DK1: Blood subspec, 2set, stacking str > haste > crit. Agility ring/neck.
DK2 (me): Unholy subspec, 4set, all arpen offset pieces, some agility pieces that gave arp (a believe rings).

When we had our sets at around 60% completion, I was always behind on DPS. That stood true for more static fights like XT or very mobile fights like Freya. It got to a noticeable gap to complete out-performing. First thing I did was change to blood subspec as it was the least investment. That made a dent, but still not enough. Eventually, like I mentioned in my first reply I had to drop down to a 2set and re-gear almost entirely. At full BiS we were doing with 1-2% of eachother's DPS, sometimes I would do more, sometimes not.

TL:DR - From experience, I choose blood subspec while ignoring arpen until TOC.

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Kapii The problem here is that you need to understand the stat weights. unholy subspec actually scale BETTER with strength than blood subspec because of the 3% strength from Ravenous Dead. Agility is a wasteful stat on dk's(especially unholy subspec) compared to items with strength. I'd bet you if you went full Strength gear with proper itemization, you'd be pulling ahead.

This is all regarding t8. I don't know about t9+

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gingir

Kapii The problem here is that you need to understand the stat weights. unholy subspec actually scale BETTER with strength than blood subspec because of the 3% strength from Ravenous Dead. Agility is a wasteful stat on dk's(especially unholy subspec) compared to items with strength. I'd bet you if you went full Strength gear with proper itemization, you'd be pulling ahead.

This is all regarding t8. I don't know about t9+

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Well that was 4 years ago, so I may not recall it 100%. At the moment, on Forstmourne, I changed to unholy subspec and am full strength with all caps, apart from having the agility cloak from Hodir HM. No complaints about DPS in this variation.

I will open a separate discussion thread for TOC I think just to throw some ideas at a wall.

I am just going to say that I THINK that RAWR is a BAD sim to use for a DK when talking about stat values.

Also, there is a good reason why Aldrianas and Tosks are BIS items even tho they have AGILITY as the main stat in them.
Some agility items are better than strength items, by a lot.

Strength is not good because of Ravenous Dead alone, and I doubt 3% from Ravenous Dead makes any difference in the two specs, when it comes to stat prio on Strength, both specs have Unbreakable Armor that increases strength by 20% and 15% increase from the weapon enchant.

Even tho this is taken from UNHOLY GUIDE: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=326654
It is a perfectly reasonable explanation for Frost as well, on why Blood Sub-spec might be better early game:
"[Blood Sub-spec Without Reaping] 17/0/54
The most optimal single target build when poorly geared (which, in this context, is anything before 4P T9). The primary reason this spec is best at lower gear levels is due to Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Bladed Armor hardly scales since armor values on dps hardly scales, and thus gives a near-constant amount of AP regardless of gear level, making it a strong talent at the start, but relatively weaker as gear goes by. Dark Conviction provides a flat amount of crit, and crit gets weaker the more of it you have (i.e, 50 -> 55% crit is a smaller dps increase than 30 -> 35% crit). Once you get to 4P T9 and beyond, the two alternative specs will easily pull ahead, largely thanks to the failings of these two talents. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight."
Also, Strength items might be more valuable due to more Armor, that gets converted in even more attack power, when using Blood Sub-spec.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gnimo

I am just going to say that I THINK that RAWR is a BAD sim to use for a DK when talking about stat values.

Also, there is a good reason why Aldrianas and Tosks are BIS items even tho they have AGILITY as the main stat in them.
Some agility items are better than strength items, by a lot.

Strength is not good because of Ravenous Dead alone, and I doubt 3% from Ravenous Dead makes any difference in the two specs, when it comes to stat prio on Strength, both specs have Unbreakable Armor that increases strength by 20% and 15% increase from the weapon enchant.

Even tho this is taken from UNHOLY GUIDE: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=326654
It is a perfectly reasonable explanation for Frost as well, on why Blood Sub-spec might be better early game:
"[Blood Sub-spec Without Reaping] 17/0/54
The most optimal single target build when poorly geared (which, in this context, is anything before 4P T9). The primary reason this spec is best at lower gear levels is due to Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Bladed Armor hardly scales since armor values on dps hardly scales, and thus gives a near-constant amount of AP regardless of gear level, making it a strong talent at the start, but relatively weaker as gear goes by. Dark Conviction provides a flat amount of crit, and crit gets weaker the more of it you have (i.e, 50 -> 55% crit is a smaller dps increase than 30 -> 35% crit). Once you get to 4P T9 and beyond, the two alternative specs will easily pull ahead, largely thanks to the failings of these two talents. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight."
Also, Strength items might be more valuable due to more Armor, that gets converted in even more attack power, when using Blood Sub-spec.

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Sure, but that's not really what I was saying. What I was saying if you saw my previous messages is that rawr in general can give you a pretty good idea of if a specific item is better or worse than another item, while simcraft can you give more accurate info regarding dps. The stat weights and dps tests were from simcraft, not rawr. Also, yes, ravenous dead is very minimal, but it still affects the stat weight of strength, even if it does it minimally, but that's how min-maxing works right?

Also, like I said, I don't know about t9 or t10, I am talking specifically about t8 which is where I have done all my research and testing :) .

I honestly have no clue about t9 or t10 so I will completely take your word for t9/t10 about agility.

Do you spend your death runes on obliterate with the blood-spec? I have a lot of trouble with pestilence being on cooldown if i do this since diseases only last 15 seconds.

Yo i use these 2 macros to queue up a rune strike whenever it procks for example on Grobbulus / Obsidian sanctum ,do u think its worth the RP cost or should i just save i save it for Frost Strikes?
#showtooltip Blood strike
/cast rune strike
/cast blood strike
/startattack

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#showtooltip obliterate
/cast obliterate
/cast rune strike
/startattack