Raported me

But he stated rules in-game chat. And rule was to join Discord and read it. His little raiding community rules are like that, don't like - don't join. Complaining about it after loot drops is wrong, not knowing rules doesn't mean you can ignore them, does it? It works the same in lots of places. Warmane itself - rules are on forums, not in-game chat, now what, we can ignore them? Guild recruitment doesn't have all the info in-game chat, they point to external sources. It would be disgusting if player gets punished because one person didn't want to obey rules of community he joined of his free will.

And your second statement is just wrong on every level there is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angrylol

Complaining about it after loot drops is wrong, not knowing rules doesn't mean you can ignore them, does it? It would be disgusting if player gets punished because one person didn't want to obey rules of community he joined of his free will.

---

Yeah but it's easier to be willfully ignorant and then play the victim thereafter.

"I didn't read/see the rules! Therefore there were no rules!" is an easier card to play than "I joined the raid, an item that I actually would like to have just dropped, but within the parameters of this raid and it's ruleset I'm not eligible to roll on it, but, nevertheless, I want it because I'm entitled yet too lazy to read said ruleset bereforehand, and thus those rules do not apply to me".

To OP;

Next time make sure to ask any and all of your potential future PuG comrades; "Excuse me [he/she/them/undefined], would you be kind enough as to give me your explicit consent, preferably in written form, that you agree to and will abide by the rules hereby set by Raid Leader; [Raid Leader Name], which can be found on the Discord/Website page [Insert External Link], and also sign on the dotted lines here, here, and here. Thank you ahead of time for your compliance."

So all you really need to do is write up a contract of consent, issue it to every and all people who join your PuG, spend the next 30 or so minutes going through each contract to ensure they were not doctored, plus to verify all signatures and ensure no comments of non-conformity, and THEN you can run the raid, by which time I'm sure all participants of said PuG will be patiently waiting for you to lead the raid.

Simple enough, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowXS

"Excuse me [he/she/them/undefined], would you be kind enough as to give me your explicit consent, preferably in written form, that you agree to and will abide by the rules hereby set by Raid Leader; [Raid Leader Name], which can be found on the Discord/Website page [Insert External Link], and also sign on the dotted lines here, here, and here. Thank you ahead of time for your compliance."

---

Let me say this again, since people seem to be "willfully ignoring" it: having rules in some external place, where they can be removed and reposted differently or edited at will by the owner, is very likely to not be acceptable due to how easy it would be to exploit it - and that goes for both sides, anyone with some browser knowledge can edit the html, send screenshots, and claim the page was changed after the raid, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Let me say this again, since people seem to be "willfully ignoring" it: having rules in some external place, where they can be removed and reposted differently or edited at will by the owner, is very likely to not be acceptable due to how easy it would be to exploit it - and that goes for both sides, anyone with some browser knowledge can edit the html, send screenshots, and claim the page was changed after the raid, for example.

---

That doesn't entirely hold up given that the report system is based on screenshots to begin with, all of which can be doctored irregardless of the source. The whole "unedited" screenshots segway just implies a full-screen image that's been printscreened. The chat in those can just as easily be doctored to appear legitimate. For starters, many people use custom-addon chats, as well as the fact that the official Blizzard in-game chat system offers the customisability to have a fully black-background chat, wherein editing chat is even easier - but even within the instance where there is no background colour, even those can be doctored.

In either of those places the rules can be doctored and changed to fit either the Reporter or the Reportee. External or not.


EDIT: And to be clear; I do not have a dog in this fight. However, it has to be made clear that the burden of acknowledgement of a specific Raids ruleset should be rest upon the individuals joining the raid, and not the one leading it. No one joins an end-game raid without wanting to be informed as to the ruleset of said raid. Anyone who does is choosing to be willfully ignorant. The Raid Leader should not have to go behind every individual, spamming their PM's with however many paragraphs worth of rules, and to then have them consent to said ruleset in written text prior to being able to run the raid - and to screenshot everything for evidence purposes, incase people change their mind in regards to their consent of said ruleset mid-raid.

If someone wants to be made aware of the rules, and most people joining a PuG to begin with most certainly ought to want to know the rules of the run, given that there is a limited amount of trust being traded between the Raid Leader and said participants, then the burden is on the participant to find out what the rules are and to acknowledge them. Choosing to be willfully ignorant of the rules, claiming you didn't know the rules because you didn't ask what the rules of the raid were, is of no fault of the Leader of the Raid.

Even if it was to be willfully ignored that there are methods to detect image tampering, one thing doesn't affect the other. GMs accept in-game screenshots, and one of the required items is of the in-game declared raid rules. Not links, not webpages, not easily editable Discord posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Even if it was to be willfully ignored that there are methods to detect image tampering, one thing doesn't affect the other. GMs accept in-game screenshots, and one of the required items is of the in-game declared raid rules. Not links, not webpages, not easily editable Discord posts.

---

Fair enough to all the external stuff - you guys make the rules at the end of the day, it's simply our job to abide by them.

EDIT; Eh, i deleted my example, not trying to get in trouble just to make a point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowXS

In regards to your methods of detecting image tampering, must be a really good method if it's able to detect which of these two following screenshots is real, and which one is fake;

---

If you get caught using that in reports, you can get permanently banned. If the raid leader gets banned because of that, he can put his screenshots in the ban appeal, which could result in someone investigating it further and discovering what you did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anyone0

If you get caught using that in reports, you can get permanently banned. If the raid leader gets banned because of that, he can put his screenshots in the ban appeal, which could result in someone investigating it further and discovering what you did.

---

Yes, assuming the Raid Leader took screenshots to begin with - and that's the whole point. A Raid Leader would need to screenshot himself PM'ing the rules to everyone in their PuG, to also screenshot their acknowledgement and acceptance of his loot rules, to screenshot every roll post-distribution incase of mid-raid disagreements? Might as well make them sign a god damn contract at that point.

You're putting the entirety of the burden of consent on the Raid Leader. And all a participant in the raid has to do is tamper a screenshot if he doesn't get the gear he wants and make a claim the raid leader never stated any rules. The point of doctoring the in-game screenshots was to put a spotlight on the flaw in the system of "screenshots as evidence", whilst on the other hand choosing to reject external sourcing of rules because "they can be edited". I'm showing that in-game screenshots can just as easily be edited. I'm also showing how easy it is for people to submit into willfull ignorance and claim victimhood in regards to raiding with PuGs and raiding rulesets in general.

How is it the Raid Leaders duty to have to record/screenshot every roll and encounter within his raid group incase of disgruntled participants who didn't read the rules of the raid and then claim that due to a lack of clarification on the rules, there is by default a submission to; there were no rules.

If you join a PuG, it's YOUR job to find out what the rules are for the pieces that you intend to roll on, if they are to drop. The Raid Leader may choose to set common rules, but even on very specific rules, even if a piece drops that is 100% BiS for you, if the Raid Leader says he's Master Looting it for himself BEFORE the raid commences, then it's not the Raid Leaders job to keep reminding you all raid, screenshot you consenting to joining the raid with said rules in place, screenshot himself having typed out the rules, and to screenshot himself looting it and equipping the item JUST INCASE some salty 80iq brainlet decides to report him because "iTeM BeSt iN sLoT fOr My MaGe", followed by "there were no rules".

EDIT: But whatever, im bored of this conversation now, I'm simply arguing the point for the sake of arguing - can't be bothered to take it any further.

I just hope he will be banned. It's not the 1st time he acted like that. Last time he was spamming global that he needs just resto druid. I joined, and he didn't link any rules in raid chat, he didn't link discord channel too. He asks ppl to join discord after few bosses. He used English on that discord channel and from time to time he was using Polish language. I heard him talking to his guild members that if he wins rolls he will give the item to the guild member. Of course rules are to gear his alts and his guild members. He was logged by 2 chars at that raid and always yell to not heal his mage and let it die. And his mage get trinket even if he was 2nd at rolls. I was tired and I just yelled in discord, I left the raid and put all that guild in my ignore list. I should make some screenshots and report him too. I'm really happy someone else did it.

His mage which we was gearing...
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/profile

I hope this Scumbag and his fellow "friends" finally get banned after those reports, i advice anyone not to join this guys raids. There has been tons of drama about scummy practices and stuffing+ editing discord rules last minute to fit his Friends loottable expectations. NGL, i'm kinda happy he is stupid enough to expose his own bull**** to everyone on the forums.

This is ridiculous, forcing someone random to join an discord just so he can check all the rules. One step forward and we will make some people sign agreement, made of 30 pages. Just before damn raid in 10yo old game...

If You want such a detailed loot rules, make a guild, put it in description, website, discord, I don't really care.

If You are taking PuG to fill Your raid, make an short & clear overall loot rules and inform about it everyone when inviting them and right before starting. I would keep the lock side here and think Raid Leader behaviour should be seen as abusing of loot system.

Here is solution for You. If You want, create a guild, raid with Your guildmates, set up rules. If people don't like it, they will leave Your guild and thats all. If You want to make to make an PuG raids, make the rules clear, short, and explain it to everyone IN GAME.

That's why someone invented "Guild" feature in-game. This "discord community" that You are leader of just seems like nice place to perform some scams, smells fishy af and I don't believe that You (and Your friends) are not taking advantages of it.

Imagine dealing with all these bull**** politics just for a chance to earn a piece of gear or a title. Whatever happened to: "This is what I want, is it reserved? no? okay, I'm in/yes? well then I'm not going." The community for this game sure made things complicated for no reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valestia

Imagine dealing with all these bull**** politics just for a chance to earn a piece of gear or a title. Whatever happened to: "This is what I want, is it reserved? no? okay, I'm in/yes? well then I'm not going." The community for this game sure made things complicated for no reason.

---

I can think of a reason why such rules were implemented:

"This is what I want, is it reserved? no? okay, I'm in. *few bosses later* Wait, what? It's actually reserved? I want justice! REEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

or this:

"This is what I want, is it reserved? no? okay, I'm in"
*few bosses later* "top X dps get to roll on Y item"
"Wait, what? I didn't sign up for this? I want justice! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

Btw, the second case might have been a small exaggeration, which in actuality happens once in a blue moon, but last year I was a victim of a stupid rule, that was made up midway through the raid. Without going too much into detail, I will just say, that I joined ToC 25 as a frost death knight and got loot banned and then kicked from the group just because another DK used Path of Frost before Anub, when the raid leader threatened to punish all dks, if even one used the aforementioned spell. So, yeah, those rules were made for a reason. Players aren't always trustworthy.

Your list is bull****. I'd report you as well.

thing is, reading the rules on discord is beyond avg pugger's mind

unless you have stated you have item distribution prio system that is against the commonly accepted.. and not seconds before pull when no one would check it out

then again, your list is bad. xd

The fact that spirit translates to another stat doesn't mean it is in the best way; nor that overstacking it would be op: remember that the area of the rectangle with the same sum of dimensions is highest when it is a square?.. Because, the haste and crit stats can be its width and height, and your dps - its area :) And, you kind of exclude the difficulty to obtain a "bis" item (read it as lk weap, bql, spindle, etc)