I'm starting to remember seeing few spellhances. Though I have no recollection of them performing well (maybe they were just mediocre, or lower dps for me to pay attention).
Also some statements of enhance doing more ST dmg, why would you go spellhance against mostly ST oriented bosses, where AoE isn't a big part. Even then, why pick shaman over some other DPS, when it only brings DPS to raid.
Oh those are the "iceclowns" you talk about ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPatriot1
Vids are from icecrown LMAO
No seriously spellhance is viable but slightly below classic enhance in ICC, and is taking caster loots which pretty much pisses off half of your guild's DPSes
Play it if you like it but don't act like it's some godlike hidden spec, the hype was real when it could proc RotD from flametongue but now that it has been patched its "just" a fun offbuild
1000 coins if you can find a remotely comparable Windfury dog to this guy who isn't even optimizing the build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeaconn
Yes, congratulations, 1/1000 Shams on Icecrown are Spellhance and there's a 99% chance they didn't get the build from Icecrown. I found one who isn't playing perfectly and it's a bloodbath compared to 2010 Molten WoW/Iceclown spec. This whole "WF isn't actually complete garbage" meme comes from Rawr on a single target fight, which is laughably inaccurate. Notice how Glyph of Fire Nova isn't even in Rawr and Fire Nova glyph is what makes spellhance. All Rawr does is take averages of everything, it's not even a simulator.
You ever seen an Affliction Warlock playing with JC/Tailor in T7/T8 because Rawr said it's good? Rawr unironically says Engineering is a meme. Even if you go Rawr --> EnhSim, EnhSim doesn't properly snapshot anything, will unironically Lava Lash at bad times, not sync CDs, etc. If it was possible to watch how these old sims actually play out (even 2022 tbc sims are a complete joke and wrong in some way almost all of the time. ie unironically using rampage in tbc > death wish bc source bros think sims are biblical) no one would ever use sims.
I can link you better enhances AND spellhances than this on DBS haha
but I doubt you can actually provide 1000 coins.
18.8k = ~13k DPS without ICC buff, many shams (including spellhance) can consistenly beat that, despite the fact that the one in your vid is helped by the fast timer of the kill because it's, as you said, it's iceclown so not even a really fair match.
It's not even comparable, back in 2010 people did 30k dps abusing bugs and exploits (ESPECIALLY shamans), it's like comparing apples and oranges.Quote:
it's a bloodbath compared to 2010 Molten WoW/Iceclown spec
They are entirely customizable, moot pointQuote:
This whole "WF isn't actually complete garbage" meme comes from Rawr on a single target fight, which is laughably inaccurate
So just a rant about sims in the end I suppose. Now I'm out no need to discuss (bad) anecdotal evidence any further.
To adress once and for all OP: Enhance is mediocre, Spellhance is mediocre (speaking for ICC, they're pretty good in Naxx and Uldu)
you play those classes because they're cool and dynamic, but if you want to top recount vs good players, you won't
There's warr/rogue/mage for that
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
"Oh, I could TOTALLY provide this link of a meme spec doing damage, but for some reason I don't seem to have it." Absolute cope of the century.
Also conceding you know nothing about sims and whining about "anecdotal" (do you know what this word means?) evidence when you were humiliated by the empirical evidence.
show the coins :)
yo,
here's my DBS as cookie cutter WF enha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMyS...harpshadyWoTLK (it's Lordearon not Icecrown) 6.5. Next week I'm gonna post spellhance as it's almost the same GS (6554). Imho they are almost the same even on a single target. Ofc every fight there is some RNG, and also spellhance has "50 GS" advantage in my case, but still - it's not game breaking difference for me.
Used wrong pot, didn't get histeria etc. No schenanigans
Nice finally a balanced opinion in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshady88
As someone who's been trying a bit of both builds in different patches, I'd have a few questions:
-How much do you prioritize haste ? At some point I reach a point where I proc so much that I lose SS debuff (and SS is on CD) and you seem to have the same issue in your video. Do you think a setup with less haste but harder hits (i.e arpen build) could outperform your current WF setup? Simulations say arpen is technically the highest possible output
-When it comes to spellhance, what's your opinion on builds with a lot of spellpower items and, by extension less hit/crit?
They seem to perform fine in warcraft logs, but it's a handful of players and it's hard to judge how much can be attributed to that.
Not sure what simulations you are using but EnhSim is the most accurate one and even though the difference between the gear builds is quite small, the gear comb which focus on haste deals the most single target DPS on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeaconn
In the end it depends on the boss encounter.
- ARP gear setup deals the most DPS on encounters where lot's of movement is involved such as PP.
- Spellhance deals most DPS on encounters with adds.
- Haste gear setup is the all-rounder.
SP is a very poor stat, even for spellhance. Never gem for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeaconn
The only reason why SP pieces are viable is because they have a very high ilvl and good secondary stats and in case of the caster main hand it's the shear amount of SP that it provides which makes it good.
Spoiler:Show
Pls stick to that gear setup. It's the best for spellhance.
Only thing which is discussable is LS glyph vs FN glyph.
LS glyph deals better single target DPS because Fire Nova deals pathetic single target dmg, even as spellhance.
On the other hand the main purpose of spellhance is to deal better aoe dmg than with the other builds and FN glyph is obviously better for that.
Last I heard the single highest DPS on the sim was arpen very slightly beating haste (I'm talking like maybe 100 dps more nothing crazy)Quote:
Originally Posted by Black2ck
I know I know, don't worry I've been playing enha for a while too, but in the logs some of the highest spellhances use more caster items than the bis list you mentionned, which I find oddQuote:
Originally Posted by Black2ck
Obviously my information might be inaccurate because it's just what shows up in armory so the info might not be fresh
I'm just wondering if these guys do it because they enjoy the big crit numbers or if they have figured something that we haven't
I personally use caster pieces for: neck (as it bring the best stats possible: haste+hit and high itlvl), cloak, bracers (I got 284 caster ones. Will replace when I get leather 284 melee piece), belt (haste,crit , 284 itlvl) and that's it.
As for haste vs other stats:
#1 I got "only" 830 haste on WF build. 510 hit rating. It's not high haste I guess. No matter how much/little you got - if youre on 3 stacks of maelstrom and WF ticks - there is always a chane you will loose GCD before using 5/5 maelstrom.
#2 on spellhance I go with only ~400 hit and 1100 haste. I would probably change these stats abit but my MS is Resto and cant afford silly gemming in my guild atm. Enha is only part-time job for me.
#3 never went ARP build, I have no idea buddy. And I'm not the kind of guy who will try to correct other players and tutor them on things I haven't tried myself.
enhsim is great, yeah but in the end we're not ideal players/machines and some delay in actions/ brain fog etc has to be taken in consideration imho. Good tool to show you general direction but cmon - it's not like 50 of any stat here or there will ruin your gameplay
regards
The cookie cutter setup yields 〜13140 DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeaconn
ARP setup yields 〜13060 DPS.
Spellhance yields 〜12940 DPS.
That's single target DPS according to EnhSim.
So the gear builds are all very close to each other.
Sims don't take small rotation mistakes into account so that might be in favor for the Arp build because it's dmg is more focused on Autoattack and Windfury.
Actually you are an Iceclown. The enha totem if talented is better than the horns from dk's and I still see people putting 5 points in the int% talent when you can clearly do the math and see that those 4% more int is just worse than the base 15% better totem....Quote:
Originally Posted by OhieMitzen
Spellhance theoretically deals a tiny bit (about 200dps) less than normal enha from enhasims bis perspektive on a solo target but should deal like 100-400% more dps on aoe... So why would you even take a normal single targettbot enhance when rogues just do it better
Spellhance on the other side has higher ups in burst phases because more haste in fights will impede ss proccs due to the 3s timer, while spellhance just gets plain dmg for both ft weaps
The other thing is when you dig deep enough you'll find out that enhasim is the only dmg simulator that is kind of accurate for enhas but it still doesn't manage to incorporate the full dmg of ls... My guess is that it doesn't factor the ft weaps as a source of proccing ls which actually doubles its amounts to procc in addition to the fast caster mainhand you also take to procc it, so a big portion of dmg is lost to a small portion lost for the normal version.
If you have played spellhance you know how big of a part ls is for your dmg. Thats why only a small amount of players know that spellhance IS the definitive best version of enhancement (I would still argue if it really had a tiny bit less single target dps because the boost in aoe tremendous)
Another note what people tend to forget is that enhas also offheal when raid is having a rough time and instand hw's are much bigger as spellhance than normal enha, it saves you much more as it does others and dk's can't do that. If you want to argue that an optimal raid doesn't need its offhealing then why are you here? Because if people would play optimal you can also clear icc hc on a full druid or full pala team just to have fun with, because wotlk pve content is ez af.
If you view it more on the casual gamers side then yes, they shouldn't bring enhas because they have one of the hardest prio lists to execute (thats why most people think they just do no dmg) , they are super squishy (they die a lot, again less dmg) , people don't theorycraft or search deep enough to actually get good (again, less dmg)
Theese points arent as valid for other speecs because most speccs are allready optimized but spellhance still has space to get better
Should be easy to figgure out if FT affects the proc rate of LS on EnhSim. You just need to run the simulation with FT imbue enabled and disabled and then compare the proc rates of LS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primat
Imo it's often difficult to tell if smth doesn't function correctly on EnhSim or if it's a Warmane related bug. I mean, we are playing on a private server after all... Would be interesting to simulate a self buffed dummy fight on EnhSim and then compare the DPS numbers to a ingame dummy fight with a shami of the exact same gear. That would tell us how accurate EnhSim is.
whoever said Enhance is bottom tier dps, is ****ing ******ed. IN phase 1, enhance regular gearing, is top dps. In ICC25 Heroic gear, and armor pen, its also top Damage. And the margin of difference between top damage and a icc25 heroic enhance shaman, is not "A **** LOAD". Enhance is good dps the entire expantion. Never is enhance ****ty or bottom tier. Its just stupid that anyone sais this. They clearly only "tested" ranom geared shamans on PTR's . They clearly didnt main and parse on them like I did back in original wotlk. Enhance was always decent. So was Elemental. Both can be in ICC 10 heroic Lich kings, and keep up in damage with most other classes. There are always fights some classes can flex on with way more damage than the rest, but other than these special cases, Enhance regular is great. Now spell hance is only better at AOE damage. Notice no one sais the truth. Its only better in AOE/Cleave situations. Single target, normal enhance wins. Especially with armor pen items. Remember enhance is still 55%+ melee white damage with WF procs. Cheers. and play what you want. The youtubers are trying to create a meta that just isnt there in wotlk.