Yes... Can you please reupload that video? ^.^
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Yes... Can you please reupload that video? ^.^
As the youtube link is dead and so is this thread, I'll document some of my victories with this build for the sake of converting more people into it.
I've been running it for a long time now and I attest to this build's incredible reliability in the following:
1. Beating every 2H Dk that doesn't have SM at Single target and AoE DPS,
2. Always be top 5 even with raids full of 6.3k+ Gs donoobs,
3. Getting kicked out of half of raid groups upon inspection.
Here's a few dungeon pics.
I'm DWing Heroic Scourgeborne Waraxes (GSB 1.5 speed axes) and wearing 4/5 t9 in all of them.
https://imgur.com/a/c6FfWNo
In theory dual wielding hc havocs is bis until you get sm on unholy. Problem with Warmane and wow in general is that everyone copies someone that copied someone else and if you dont follow those strict things you are doing it "wrong"Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
It is!. SM is too broken lol but Havocs aren't too far below it. Logs and sims show the damage difference being way too insignificant, and any moment the fight becomes about more than one target, DW pulls ahead.
Slow weapons are always the best, but unlike frost Dks—where a fast weapon completely ruins your dps—UH DW doesn't suffer as much because a dismal portion of your DPS comes from the raw "Weapon Damage" stat (namely, PS, BS and SS. Count BCB/necrosis/melee out of the picture because they're normalized).
People severely overestimate the strength of scourge strike, while underestimating death and decay, ghoul frenzy, IT and PS. This build makes full use of all of these.
I don't blame the RLs that have kicked me out. I too have distrusted the unknown.
The part about copying someone yeah I mean technically we're all copying someone lol but you can definitely make it your own if you master it well enough. I have only seen a couple DW UH DKs in a full year, and have gotten many whispers asking how I pull the numbers I pull after a raid fight.Weird, unpopular spec because people are too hellbent on "muh SM SS-spammer!".
@Yhorema Really nice write up! Do be honest, I was not that forgiving with people kicking me on inspect on warmane, when I was interested in a spec, but I guess I could have avoided it by avoiding pugs in general, which is not a bad idea on warmane.
Do you do any kind of logs as well to document your dps milestones?
Would be interested to look at them
I don't keep logs because I don't know how to. Can you teach me? I would love to!
I just sim it. Anytime I do something or get a piece of gear, I sim it. Here's my character exported: https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/deat...zVl/kCY2cX2w==
everyone who is interested in logs on warmane and @Yhorema
here are two main log hosting services for warmane.
First one is uwulogs: https://uwu-logs.xyz/
here is a guide on how to start using it: https://uwu-logs.xyz/upload
If you use weakauras, you can follow the weakauras instructions and all your raids will be automatically logged.
Just follow the instructions and archive and then upload the log file to the website.
You will be able to inspect your fight in detail. What and who used and when. You also will be able to see your ranking on dps for you class on this boss.
Second one is: https://wow-logs.co.in/
Which is rather new. Everything is the same. you upload the archived log and then can inspect it.
Thank you very much for the explanation @dzianis! My Dk's name is Uhhdk, in Icecrown.
I went to a ToC 25 just now and uploaded this: https://uwu-logs.xyz/reports/25-11-2...hdk--Icecrown/
@yhorema
were you able to see my messages i sent you through wamane profile/dm system?
anyway,
i want to just say that with your setup it might be worth trying to get a slow weapon for the main hand. For it to be a dps gain, it needs to be either havoc nm, bvb hc or havoc hc. Any of the three should be a decent dps increase.
And also something assosiated with it is that even tho scourge strike is a bad ability, the 200 str buff it gives is actually very good. As soon as you will get a slower weapon, it will also be a dps increase to use scourge strike a bit more often, going for that buff more agressively, without sacrifising the dnd uptime, which is actually very good in your case!
keep it up!
Finally, even tho 4t9 is very good, you probably will soon hit 4t10-264 which is already starting to be better than 4t9-245 on single target and then 4t277 t10 at which point you will just unfortunately have to go for it. you still can use the 4t9 on aoe, but it is better to try and get 258 versions of t9 gear for it to be both more viable and more fun. But for this you need a guild able to kill togc consistently, which is generally not a bad thing as it is also a source of 258 DC/DV.
Thanks for sharing your logs so openly and keep going!
,
P.S. you also sometimes clip the diseases in a very unfortunate manner like here https://imgur.com/a/dgIWTeS
which if happens consisently loses quite a bit of dps. but that problem partially also goes away if you use scourge strike more often, but just keep an eye on this.
SS is also not that terrible of an ability with 2t10 you soon might start to wear and 284 havoc, so ye, there are just mutliple factors why this becomes optimal gameplay.
@dzianis
Saw it! It's about the logs, right? Thank you for the instructions! Happy to share them.
I must be very clear: This is only true if comparisons have the same ilvll and the same stats (which doesn't exist inside ICC. So doing this is moot in practice. Simming it is the way to go).Quote:
Originally Posted by dzianis
I've simmed all the weapons in ICC and the dismal differences in comparison come due to both Ilvl and stats. Sim weapons of similar ilvl but different speeds and you'll come to dismal differences (+-0.1% DPS) only explained by their stats (weapons with haste, hit, or with sockets above their counterparts automatically pull ahed). If you're trying to minmax this build sure by all means donate to get 2x Havocs HC, best top-end damage and perfect stats. My argument is that you can literally use any 1-hander you can find (Bonebreaker scepter, Soulreaver, Scourgeborne Waraxe, BVB. Even Last Word is unironically good).
Sims and logs agree: Under 5% of your damage comes from the "weapon damage" stat (PS, BS, SS). Do not blindly take a slower weapon of a lower ilvl because of this argument.
You must learn to give up on SS with this build altogether. No amount of bonuses will make it better becase 1.- There's no death runes (0/3 Reaping), 2.- There's 0% SS bonus damage from talents (0/3 Outbreak), 3.- Extra SS mean less resources for IT/PS/DND/GF (your bread-and-butter), and 4.- Sigil's proc chance is 80% with a 10s ICD (Further SS-spamming doesn't increase your chances—You already only SS to gain/refresh this buff).Quote:
Originally Posted by dzianis
Ruine cycles are irrelevant on the traditional SS-spamming build—just spam SS and use pestilence. Rune cycles are scarse and require lots of managing in this build: diseases on every cycle, DND every other cycle, SS or GF every odd one (I actually believe GF is best to refresh no more than once every minute with Blood Tap. Idk, I have yet to test it out).
To make SS actually viable as "the most optimal gameplay" one would have to tweak this build's talents and reinvent it such that you would end up getting yourself a 2hander and the build becomes the traditional SS-focused build it strays away from. Tah-dah, you're back to square one.
Kinda True. Again has much to do with ilvl and stats. t9 is more self sufficient, t10 requires more buffs/debuffs on you and your target (hysteria, sunders. Both a luxury in pugs).Quote:
Originally Posted by dzianis
t10 is bad because its stats are awful (0 haste and only gloves have hit) and so are its set bonuses (SS damage and a 3% bonus to all except 1/4 of your DPS—Pets). It starts pulling ahead with higher gear levels and more arpen.
t9 is good because its stats are better (hit and haste slapped onto it) and its set bonuses are okay (180 Str snapshot for pets and DND, and crits on your weak DoT).
Basically: 232 t9 > 251 t10 // 245 t9 +-= 264 t10 // 258 t9 < 277 t10
Thanks for the observation on disease clipping! Surely a mistake. I'll be more observant.
God I wish the original video was up again. It explained many of these concepts very well!
Once again, here's the sim I use: https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/deat...zVl/kCY2cX2w==
Surely the sim is the way to go. And you might have seen very low increases in dps, since you were simming in 4t9. I can imagine that. However, even in your 4t9 through the exact same link you sent, just replacing 277 fast axe mh with bvb 277 mh gives you 1% dps, although it is the same item level. Moreover, as soon as you will start to wear 4t10 you already have (2x251, 2x264) any combination of weapons i mentioned will give a dps increase, which will only get more significant as you lose haste and gain arp in icc. For reference, in your 4t10 gear havoc hc mh versus 277 fast axe you have now gives 300+ dps, which is almost a 2% increase. But you are right that you can use basically anything you can find, given the good item level, and it is not as critical as for other classes, but it still a dps increase to have a slower weapon mh. and that was the point of that section of my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
Furthermore, the suggestion was not to take a random slow weapon and it is not what i said, but to take one of the three I mentioned exactly as these will be a dps increase with havoc hcx2 being bis. Havoc 284 mh + Last word 277 offhand are however suprisingly good and is a prebis combination, as you pointed out.
thats not true for phase 4. It might have been true in naxx, uld and so on, however, so i can imagine the source of this might have been a good guide for these phases and underusing ss is better than overusing it in dualwield, so it is not big deal and we can fix this! Anyway, i am not suggesting you ss as much as 2h dk does or that you spam it and it was not what i said. I am also aware of the icd. The point is that your uptime of sigil buff is very low and it is a dps loss. It should be almost 90-95% on single target no-cleave static bosses and can drop below that a bit, if the fight is a bit more complicated or if you are really unlucky in rolling the proc chance. yours is more in range of 60% uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
here are the examples: https://imgur.com/a/Xe1FYIo
The point is that you need to SS at least once in 20 seconds. and not doing it is a dps loss. your log again:
https://imgur.com/a/npfRKyG
Here is an example of what i mean regarding sigil uptime.
https://uwu-logs.xyz/reports/25-03-2...=0&s=874&f=943
Also, this is not bad general reference of how the abilities of dw uh dk should be used in 6k+ gs, even tho there is always room for improvement.
There are also reasons to sometimes hold dnd for a couple of secs for a more advantageous cleave moment or if the boss will change its location and therefore dnd will get no value and to spend the runes you just it + ps, but if you have only one gcd or disease timers will lead to clipping, you just ss instead, sometimes even 2x in a row (!!!). It does not mean you come back to original 2h unholy ss spam, it means that 2xss to proc unlucky sigil or to get usage of dnd soon is a more optimal play in this particular situation. But if you or anyone who will read this are still learning, just try to maximize dnd uptime and after you feel very confident and your logs are pink, you can try to optimize for particular boss fights.
yes, your assessment of t9 vs t10 is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
Since the original video is down, i suggest everyone interested in unholy dw on warmane to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEOHLZwZ5wQuote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
It is necessary however to realize that gargoyle and army usage in different on warmane as gargoyle snapshots all the buffs, but has a haste cap, so you can skip these parts in the video or just watch them carefully with that differences in mind.
Final notes are that although whitewolf's original old video is very good and he invented the build, the build and the understanding of the class evolved during the wotlk classic and his original video might not be 100% complete or correct for phase4+ in some niche aspects. it is still a must watch, but there are nuances.
P.S.
yes, you are right. if you want food for thought on how to use it efficiently:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
1) -9 sec prepull, before that and before boss fight you pool RP with it.
2) last seconds of your first bloodtap, smth between +19-25 seconds.
3) every blood tap you have going onward
4) transitions on pp, sindy, lk in icc context, but applies generally to raiding and downtime on boss
this will already give you very high uptime on short fights. You can use it for unholy rune midrotation on longer fights and it is a dps gain, if done correctly. the problem for many people is the "done correctly" part. therefore, i would not recommend it, unless you know what you are doing.
P.S. 2
In addition to the fallacious assumption to give up ss completely, I actually find it suprising that you mentioned reaping and ss spam with death runes, because reaping builds are not viable. Not with sm, not in bis, not at any time point in wotlk. Viable or comptetive 2h ss "spam" with sm build still refreshes diseases manually. It does use pestilence for cleave, but not on single target, but so should you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
@dzianis
Thanks a lot actually, you clarified everything very nicely. You're very thorough and I respect that.
The Sim agrees with your food for thought—GF should only be refreshed through tapping. I'll do that and hope it improves the sigil uptime issue—I had no idea it was that low. If it keeps being low, I'll test how I can chuck more SS into rotations. I'm excited there is still room for improvement and theorycrafting seeing how this build already is hidden op.
I apologize for making so many assumptions, I know they made your point blurry. I'm happy that you understand them though. Thank you!
I also wasn't aware that SS build didn't use reaping lol. This is my first UH Dk, I only ever had a Frost Dk back in 2012, but I sucked at it.
I'll work on actioning these improvements. I'll post more logs next raid with the changes actioned!
Hey, did you make a separate rotation then? basically testing do! GF in GF <not active> for unholy rune vs GF in the specific timings/with BT? could you share it? or how did you test it that it is better to gf with bt only or that sims agrees with this statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
I actually found it rather difficult to make changes to the rotation so that sim actually does what i want or/and it requires a lot of double checking and staring at the timeline part to make sure everythings is right.
all good. to be honest, i would agan recommend finding a guild that will allow you to step into LOD or 8/12. Better kill times, better gear, better enviroment and less time spent per raid than pugs. Same with togc. Otherwise the gearing is a grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhorema
Can't say that build is disgustingly op in phase5, where we are on icecrown warmane, or at least is very hard to make it appear so, considering that every second person is bis and every third person has sm. it is the strongest spec and class in the game before 6k gs tho (phase3-phase4early levels), so there is some joy in that.
Hi. I hadn't been as active lately.
Here's a new ICC log drop (i forgot to turn on combat log for Lord Marrowgar, but everything past him is there): https://uwu-logs.xyz/reports/25-12-1...?target=008F12
(I made lots of changes here vs what I did in the past. 1) Ss more, DND less. Noticeable increase in Unholy Force uptime. 2) Stretch Desolation to fit in more Blood Boils, sacrficing some uptime (90% instead of 99%). 3) GF only on BT.
By default, the rotation I sim with exclusively uses GF after Life Tap meaning it only refreshes it once per minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzianis
[QUOTE=dzianis;3269564]all good. to be honest, i would agan recommend finding a guild that will allow you to step into LOD or 8/12. Better kill times, better gear, better enviroment and less time spent per raid than pugs. Same with togc. Otherwise the gearing is a grind.
I'm sure it's the way to go! I cant be bothered: too little free time, plus UH Dk is in low demand in guilds where they already have designated ones battling for SM ownership. Hard to get a spot.
I digress. This build is amazing. Here's why:Quote:
Originally Posted by dzianis
- The damage-per-gearscore ratio is off the charts. It outdoes everything except maybe balance druids on 15-second AoE-heavy fights.
- Baffle pugs with 17+ consistent damage sources).
- Automatic AoE (true to a degree, only need to integrate pestilence).
- Best weapon-based accesibility of any melee class (any 1H that isn't SP-based is good. Any 1H weapon is great: slow-agi, fast-agi, even tanking weapons are good).
- Super stat-friendly (You only need 5% hit, expertise can be completely ignored, haste is huge for snapshots, crit is huge with t9. Only ArPen is "meh" until ICC-tier gear).
- Hit keeps contributing to 1/3 of your DPS past the 5% cap with the ridiculously high 24% DW hit cap. You get 3% from talents.
- Spikes in power early (With ToC-tier gear).
- Cheap (uses many orange hybrids for gem socket bonuses).
- Benefits off of EVERY raid buff (physical ones like sunders, melee haste, melee crit, etc. spell ones like spell crit, spell damage, etc).
Here's what's bad about it:
- Complex (extremely so when compared to a traditional SS build).
- Heavily reliant on snapshotting pets correctly.
- Pet-reliant (Ghoul does 15% of your DPS, add gargoyle and army to that. Any of those die and you suffer).
- Your pet shares class-focused buffs (like GboK) with rogues.