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Every loot distribution system can be griefed and abused if the guild and people you play with are ****ty. What you describe is the worst version of DKP, but this can be done with other systems as well. As Angrylol said the idea is to get people invested long term and to separate them from the loot whores who could be gone tomorrow. My favorite system is loot council, but if you are in **** guild this could be way worst then DKP.
That's your personal experience, not a representation how "DKP works". People actually prefer to play their main chars, you know. You can't understand it, because all you see is "gear gear gear". At some point you realize, gear is just a secondary thing, a sub-product.
I chose a guild I liked. Went trough a lot of guilds with all kinds of weird rules, even corrupt ones. And yeah, all the "endgame" guilds are pretty much the same: it works. There are some 15 ultra-competent people who carry it and the rest a crying how they are getting scammed.
And you are right about Bob, but still the principle is the same. Bob and everyone will spend their DKP, so John will have the most DKP, that's inevitable. And after John has grinded his *** off, there will come Billy crying about how it's unfair and John is scamming him.
You were smart enough to not link your guild, which would probably be against the rules in this context. So I wont either. It's beyond the point in either case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightforged
Light. Your PERSONAL experience does not represent experience of other players.
DKP proved to be more stable/reliable system in a long term. And yes, fresh "meat" who just joined guild has no right to claim rare/valuable piece over veteran who spent months/years being here, bringing whatever character needed to fill raid and thus inevitably missing his chance for said gear.
From your post it is kinda obvious that you are mostly single, double at maximum character player. You've likely never was obligated to shove your ambitions down the throat/buttcheeks and bring crucial or strongest character to make successful run, thus losing even chance to get needed item on one of your other toons.
YOU might not like DKP, but it is one of most stable systems. Way more fair than GDKP that plagued retail.
So DKP is a fraud only when you personally can't benefit from it right after joining established guild. Which seems to be case here, taking i to account your recent posts which reveals you being wandering player.
It might be my personal experience yes...but I as a person am not biased. Everything I wrote in the post is purely logical and self explanatory, as said below people who defend it, are the ones inside that system that are getting those benefits. You can easily assume many things about me, but those are assumptions and will never be close to the truth.
If you believe so strongly that the DKP system has been so "stable" then provide proof of it and not just say it. And besides I had benefited from DKP myself and I know what it is like, but the difference between me and you my friend, is that just because I got benefits from it, it didn't blind sight me to the truth behind it. It is simply a fact that it is only beneficial for those who joined the guild quite early on and had been there ever since, new comers have no chance and it's a fact, even you yourself had said they have no right to claim valuable items, but ask yourself why not? If they contributed to the raid, why not?
Please make more assumptions, say things that I am not. It just kind of makes me laugh to how salty DKP players get when get exposed.
Just provide evidence to everything you say, like me...I explain it since I am not afraid to be debunked.
You ask for evidences which does not exist.
But yeah, i myself spent 3 months running 2 of my mains in guild on any call, siding my other toons, before i got firs titem using DKP.
And you do need to visit some logis courses, since you are presenting your personal, biased opinion as some kind of absolute truth
In court and civilised societies, it is burden of vindicator to provide evidence to support their claim. Yet you just vocaled your grief of inability to get tour "deserved" items.
You seem to be sticking to the "new player vs old player" assumption, where the old player is always bidding against the new player. Do you think the new player would have any better luck with loot council with the same setup?
What are your thoughts on DKP outside of that scenario?
How about when the old player just bought Invincible's Reins for 500 DKP (all in). The next raid something else he's been after drops. He has no DKP left. The new player has some pocket DKP from previous raid (where he spent 0 DKP). Now the bidding starts and the new guy gets the item for 5 DKP, minimum price.
Don't forget that if it's two older players going against each other, the item's price can go sky high. Either because both want it very much, or other is slightly trolling and burning other player's DKP (and still willing to pay the price).
I've seen random items going for insane amounts of DKP, sometimes BiS trinket/weapon costs less than what you get from the raid.
I am not going to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, everything you literally bring up, has been explained previously. Just relax my children, it is okay to be wrong at times :) it wont hurt you.
Remember there are always 25 people in the raid and not just 1, if by some chance someone wasted all their DKP in last raid, there will be another to go against you (goodluck) and please chill out, acting like a bunch of kids trying to insult me indirectly, like you're trying to argue with someone who has thought almost everything through, and I say almost because there is always something I haven't, but I'd love to discuss new things, so please bring things up that have not been mentioned before.
Lots of people provided their "evidence", on exactly the same standard as was your own "evidence".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightforged
I already explained why you don't get the right to claim items in "a raid". Because you agreed to play with DKP. It's the same as looting with /roll. You don't get to say "it wasn't fair, I got out-rolled", because you agreed to such rules(it's absolutely trash system in my opinion, it's unfair RNG cancer in itself, but since I agreed - it's fair). What's fair is what you agree upon.
That is besides the point, people who choose to join on their own terms, it's their fault and that's not even a question. I simply just try to educate people who are new to wow or warmane in general, to not be scammed of their time.
@Lightforged can you tell us what would be better loot system than DKP in your opinion and explain why? Because from everything you are saying i get the impression you only look from the prospective of new trial/member person and never from guild prospective. I can tell you personally i am not a fan of DKP, but not for same reasons i you, i just prefer LC.
Btw DKP as a system can work very different in different guilds. With added extra rules to it, fixed item prices, class priorities, alt/main priorities, items soft reserves and so on. In my Classic guild for example they start with DKP and over the years we added extra rule to improve the system and was overall very successful. And by successful i don't mean i personally got all the loot, i was only a raider rank and currently casual/social. I mean the guild progressed and cleared the content fast and over time all active members got BIS or close to BIS. . They i currently using DFT, which is more complex version of DKP , but in it's core is the same.
Then why is the name of your topic "Why the DKP system is a fraud", instead of something like "understanding DKP system before you join a guild"? Well then you would have to actually explain it(educate people). So don't feed us this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightforged
Thank you, something new :)
Well of course each Guild can have their custom rules for their DKP, but through average guilds it tends to be plus/minus the same thing. I am not so sure how other systems work, but If I were to suggest....I'd suggest people join guilds without a system at all, just the good old fashion rolls (yes it's luck but at least you get the opportunity and do not have leavers like in pugs), until the point you learn the tactics so well, you are able to create your own raids, where you are able to reserve items for yourself.
I am personally one of the GM's in my guild, it's fresh but the whole point of my guild, is just no system at all, just simple roll and goodluck. People who stay will be a guaranteed finished raid and not like pugs where people leave at PP. Sure people can join and get the item they need and leave, but would you really want to leave knowing each time you raid with the guild you actually have a chance despite what rank you have? And ofcourse I do understand people who been in the guild for a long time, keep losing rolls to new comers, could get frustrating, but that's why they could easily make seperate raids within the guild, like a main run let's say, and have a bunch of people of the same rank who have devoted more time into the guild, run the raid together? And have a whole seperate raid for newbies.
Angrylol, the reason to why I have named this, is because people quite frankly will do anything to keep the "great" DKP status alive, for their own benefit. I am just debunking every point the defendants will throw at me, to show that It is not a good system at all, but just a scam of your time for other's benefits. (ofcourse its people's choice, but it's also a choice that is almost thrown at you by force, just simply because the amount of DKP guilds out there)
Remember there are other systems as well, but DKP is just used so much that people think it's a normal system, when it really should not be.
Literally every player who defends the DKP system, is a high rank in the guild and has been in there for a long time. I personally do not know a single new joiner who has decided to think it's a great system
But that's the who idea in their guilds, long term commitment. All of those guilds are trying to sift trough all these quick loot, pump-and-dump dudes, inflated noobs who will get kicked after few weeks, drama queens and many more undesirable types. DKP does what it's supposed to do.
I think you are saying that a hammer is a crappy tool, because you can't paint with it.
Tbh, i understand but don't forget that these players make the guild do what it does.
If you don't agree with it you should just join a new guild and suffer untill they have a solid roster.
People who "work" hard get more in life.
That's just how it goes.