Balancing for premades when forcing cross-faction BG

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Originally Posted by angrylol

But the result will be the same, GY camping and players leaving will happen, doesn't matter if it's alliance vs alliance or alliance vs horde.

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The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that as of now there's no way to play RBG and avoiding getting matched against those premades (edit: at least on Blackrock). Previously there was: disabling cross-faction and queueing from the same faction of those who are premading. Now if you queue RBG you're forced to (probably) enter that AV as Horde, where your team is getting camped, even if you are ally. Since players can and do react to this, this affects their participation and queue times.

As proposed, a middle ground could be to disable forced cross-faction only for those big BG maps, so that Alliance-faction alt characters can be forced to play Horde, just not for AV/IoC. Sounds easy to implement, doesn't affect anybody negatively and adds choices to players, with the effect of also increasing BG activity. Besides, it partially (only for AV/IoC) reverts to a previous situation, as stated above.
Yes, with this measure Horde will still enter the AV/IoC game and be camped, but at least they can login their Alliance chars (if available) and play RBG without being forced into playing against AV/IoC alliance premades.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Problem is horde people are getting camped, because balancing mechanism(long ques) were removed from alliance at the cost of nearly complete annihilation of horde pvp players.

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No, that's not the reason. The reason is there are very determined (and skilled/coordinated) players which are currently playing in the Alliance faction. They were in the Horde previously and the situation was symmetrically opposite, so the causal relationship is easy to establish. What this post/suggestion does is merely considering the effects of this, and proposing ways to improve the situation.

I seriously don't understand. Disabling AV/IoC cross-faction, and, how this scenario leads to, not sure what? Balancing anything around "having alts", especially in opposing faction, that's not a good idea. And how does logging alliance alts would help anything.

Maybe they should just make a huge pool of players from both factions and assemble groups from that. Without any priorities about factions or anything, any char, hode or alliance have the same 50/50 chance to ge horde or alliance in BG. But still GY will be camped for 6 hrs.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

I seriously don't understand. Disabling AV/IoC cross-faction, and, how this scenario leads to, not sure what? Balancing anything around "having alts", especially in opposing faction, that's not a good idea. And how does logging alliance alts would help anything.

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No, no. Those are two separate (alternative) suggestions. One serves as a means to let players avoid the GY camp AV/IoC BG and increase RBG participation from Blackrock players, the other is indeed one of the possible ways to lessen the imbalancing and solving the problem at its root, making the AV/IoC games more balanced (and fun), so that quitting is reduced and BG participation is increased.

To explain the first one better. Suppose you have an ally character and want to join RBG, but you know that if you queue RBG during an ongoing AV you'll likely end up being GY camped. That's because in those games a relatively big number of Horde players understandably quit, so there will be vacant spots continously being created, and merc mode is forced. So you, as an ally player, have 3 choices:

1) queueing for RBG and trying your luck, and if you get forced cross-faction (to Horde) AV you'll quit and get deserter, or probably just be GY camped and waste your time (why would you do that, though).
2) not playing BG at all, especially if you just needed the RBG honor bonus.
3) queueing for non random BGs, which increases queue times (need to match 1 or 2 choices, smaller pool).

Notice, there previously was a fourth option:
4) turning off merc mode and queueing from the faction of the team doing the GY camping, so that you would still increase the RBG population, while avoiding getting GY camped.
This option is no longer possible (edit: at least on Blackrock) since forced merc mode was introduced.

Now, my suggestion would be either reverting to 4) (merc mode not forced) or this one, already explained:
Force merc mode, but not for AV/IoC (BGs where massive GY camping happens), so that unlike in point 4), ally players can still fill Horde RBG teams, just not in AV/IoC. Though if an ally player for some reason wants to play on the Horde side in AV/IoC, he can still just enable merc mode.

Clearly this option doesn't help Horde players much, unless they have ally alts. But at least Blackrock ally players who would otherwise not queue for RBG could do that, with no negative effects.
The balancing suggestion instead I think is more ideal, but probably also more difficult to implement.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Maybe they should just make a huge pool of players from both factions and assemble groups from that. Without any priorities about factions or anything, any char, hode or alliance have the same 50/50 chance to ge horde or alliance in BG. But still GY will be camped for 6 hrs.

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It wouldn't work simply because this doesn't account for premades. By the way, I have nothing against premades, and I'm merely considering the current situation. Then, if or what changes to introduce is surely not my call.

Then TLDR is, remove half of player pool available for AV/IoC, so premades get bored killing those few lost and confused hordies.

Better solution would be just to cut adding new players in ongoing BGs after 15mins or something as such. So if it starts to go into GY camping, people quit and BG just closes. Delete all gained HK's while we are at it.

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Originally Posted by Shred92

That may also be - in any case if you have 39 people wanting to do something and 1 person wanting to do something else, you tell me who's being disruptive.

In any case, this is the result of forced mercenary mode, so don't blame the players.

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That is simply not the case. At most the premades are about 10 to 20 people. How can one tell? Usually by the fact that there are still people completing objectives, and the end game scoreboard will give you signs of who queued directly for AV instead of RBG (they get less total honor for same HKs). In most cases, you have a small group of people bullying the majority into compliance. Sometimes all it takes is for a few to stand up to these bullies, showing people it is still okay to play the game as it was meant to played.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Then TLDR is, remove half of player pool available for AV/IoC, so premades get bored killing those few lost and confused hordies.

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Not really:
1) that's only one possible solution
2) the amount of Alliance players that would be missing from the AV/IoC pool depends on how many of them have merc mode disabled. Since it's surely less than 100%, the total pool reduction is surely less than 50%. How many people have merc mode disabled, I don't know, so I can't say what the number is.
Edit: 3) As I learned, the effect would be even smaller because merc mode is already not forced on Icecrown, so the change would only apply to Blackrock queueing pool.

By the way, since you're concerned with the reduction of the available pool of players, you should also be concerned with the fact that in the last GY farmed AV I entered, 25 players quit in just 5 minutes. That means a relatively big number of players quitting the pool of queueing players for the next RBG and probably going to do something else entirely (good for them), decreasing BG and RBG participation. Without even accounting for those who didn't even queue RBG not to risk ending up in the GY farmed AV game.

To react to this issue by increasing the queueing pool only to allow that specific GY farmed AV game to not close, thus unlimitedly sending new entering players to be GY farmed (and quit) or get Inactive debuff, is not only not correcting it but actually making it worse.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Better solution would be just to cut adding new players in ongoing BGs after 15mins or something as such. So if it starts to go into GY camping, people quit and BG just closes.

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Even if you were sarcastic, this is actually a pretty good and viable suggestion, but maybe it can be improved or combined with:

New suggestion: if no better solution is found, it could be decided a limit of new players that can enter AV/IoC after an equal number of players left.
For example with the limit fixed to 15 (37.5% of AV team size BTW): a total of 15 Horde-team players leave the game, 15 new players take their spot, and if additional Horde-team players leave, no new players will take their spot. This would at least limit the "void" in BG activity that the GY farmed game creates.
Limit can be higher or lower and even reset every "X" minutes, to basically cap the rate of new players that can be "wasted" into the GY-farmed AV/IoC void.

. .

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Originally Posted by Blkunxpd

Imagine if horde had actual players beside the 10/10 WSG premades all of this won't matter and there won't be graveyard farming. When you dominate and can farm dummies on the graveyard - why not? Is it against the rules?

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It doesn't really matter what it could be, what it matters is what it actually is and what is going to be, and I offered my view/analysis of it.

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Originally Posted by Blkunxpd

What do you suggest, to broke AV/IOC and spread the disease called hk farmers around all other battlefields to make the game even more unplayable?

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Wow, to call them a disease is a bit too harsh. They're just playing the game as it is allowed to. It has negative effects, yes, but they're not to blame. Besides I made several suggestions, and I believe no one of them "breaks" AV/IoC. Besides, AV/IoC could be said to be pretty broken already, at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Blkunxpd

or completely remove the opportunity of playing in premade? that's just hilarious

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Strawman argument, I never said that. Also I agree, it would be hilarious (hilariously wrong)!

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Originally Posted by Blkunxpd

My point is..don't whine for staff support on forums, since this is matter which should be solved between the players. Nobody will and shouldn't change the game because your faction is weaker and farmed on the graveyard

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I provided my analysis describing the state of the situation and its effects, and offering some ideas. I believe this is the purpose of this section, I'm sorry if this makes you unhappy.

(Edit for clarity: I had unintentionally submitted this comment from another account, the moderator very kindly fixed it.)