Glyph of Healing Stream Totem

In the end of the day, unless you can prove that Raids consistently fail due to Shamans using Earthliving and that they wouldn't have failed if they were using Healing Stream, all this comes down is to a pet peeve of yours. Your argument has just been repeating that one gives bigger numbers than the other, while those big numbers might be unnecessary for the success of the Raid, as well as be healing going to people that didn't need it/weren't a priority, but none of that matters if people are completing Raids just fine or failing them because of other factors.

Both Glyphs are terrible for majority of fights except for very specific ones, like VDW.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

In the end of the day, unless you can prove that Raids consistently fail due to Shamans using Earthliving and that they wouldn't have failed if they were using Healing Stream, all this comes down is to a pet peeve of yours. Your argument has just been repeating that one gives bigger numbers than the other, while those big numbers might be unnecessary for the success of the Raid, as well as be healing going to people that didn't need it/weren't a priority, but none of that matters if people are completing Raids just fine or failing them because of other factors.

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True! With the same logic you can play in your birthday-suit and eat all mallable goes at Putricide. If your raid kills him, you are golden. While people are doing that and insist on crippling themselves by trying to improve their worst abilities, I chose a different path. It's personal preference after all :)

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Originally Posted by Neric

True! With the same logic you can play in your birthday-suit and eat all mallable goes at Putricide. If your raid kills him, you are golden. While people are doing that and insist on crippling themselves by trying to improve their worst abilities, I chose a different path. It's personal preference after all :)

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Do you always display this sort of childish behaviour when things don't go your way in a discussion?

Even if the numbers are bigger than earthliving, which they usually are, it doesn't mean they're better. If you just end up producing more overheals by having a dumb heal spam stuff on them which would've been healed anyway you don't actually gain anything. You just try to grow your e-peen by looking at big numbers on logs.
Might I suggest buying valanyr and ask for PI during a proc so you can spam chainheal on your maintank? Looks good on meters.

You should remember though: Healers work as a group. Nobody cares for if you're 1st or 5th on healing done as long as you keep your raid alive.

I don't think that this is childish. It's simply a ridiculous argument to expect proof that switching glyphs makes the difference between wipe and success. This is a game where 25 players have to work together and people who not producing at the highest level can still get carried. It is clearly better to improve one of your best abilities by 20% than one of your worst abilities by 5% if overhealing% is rather close. This insight doesn't get refuted by some sort of democratic voting. In science it doesn't matter if the discussion goes "your way". Either either right or wrong, regardless what the majority thinks. There is no truth by democracy.

Last but not least I mentioned the article on the survivorship bias in the Wikipedia. The conclusion that it is better to armor those parts who didn't get damaged was in fact so valuable - and counterintuitive - that it got classified as a military secret. Here we have the same situation. Buff your best abilities, not your worst!

You are just ignorant to what others are saying. Not to mention that totem has limited range and works only for your own group.

Calling Healing Stream "one of best" abilities is pure comedy. You are far from being as good and experienced as you want to be seen. HST provides tons of overheal and makes other spells to overheal too.
Earthliving is used because you have it always applied and considering Chain Heal is our main spell, it triggers a lot thanks to glyph.

And them telling you to get real proof is absolutely valid. Because now it is just your saying vs everybody else. Want to change it - feel free to put effort in it. Like guy from druid subforum, who has his thread with detailed explanations, formulas and reasons, all backed up by logs and videos. To show how and why use feral's abilities.

I am not ignorant, actually but I don't like to argue with people for the sake of arguing. Whatever reason I brought up got 100% ingored. The reason for that is not to admit defeat, there is no other. The result is clear, you just look at the logs. In theory lots of great ideas pop up, but practice refutes nearly all of them. In theory Earthliving is great spell, in practice it is total crap. Everyone defending Earthliving has absolutely zero clue. That is not ignorant, it's in fact quite observant.

Then go and show us, that we are wrong and you are new messiah of Restoration Shamans.
I'm 99,99% sure that all who participated in this thread have way bigger experience healing in raids on several different classes and thus know what is important and what not.

The whole discussion about Earthliving is pointless anyways, since nobody is using that glyph anyways. The absolute standard build for high-end shamans looks like this:

https://imgur.com/a/dYmI6zx

The question only arises if you dont got resto/enhance but want to use two resto-builds instead, one for single target healing (aka Saurfang) and one for multi-target (aka Bloodqueen). Then your builds should be these:

https://imgur.com/a/aGu58kE
https://imgur.com/a/D4QM2u5

Let me give my 2 cents on the topic. First of all the HST healing increase from the glyph is not flat 20% because the glyph stacks additively with Restorative Totems talent for a total of 65%. After all calculations are being applied the real flat increase is 13.8%. However both glyphs together with GoLHW are considered as a 3rd option and boss depended choice. In AOE fights where in majority of the time we are going to spam CH, we want to use either HST or EL glyph in the 3rd slot. So both glyphs have their pros and cons but neither of them are really going to boost drastically your healing or really make any difference. When HST is limited to only group healing which means affecting healing group as you are part of it, EL is a raid wide but more like an uncontrollable proc. If spell or ability A does more overall healing than spell or ability B, it doesn't really mean that the effective boost of the glyph for spell A will also contribute to more healing than the glyph boosting spell B especially when we speak for 2 glyphs that overall give a very low to negligible gain to our healing. When it comes specifically to Glyph of HST and EL, both glyphs increase healing in different ways. GoHST increases the amount of healing per tick, where GoEL gives more opportunity for more procs occuring at a time by increasing the proc chance. Unless we have real logs to check the Expression Editor and see for how much HST is actually healing during the entire fight, it's not possible to really say how much GoHST really contributes to that healing on per boss basis and how much is going into overheal because this is not possible to be seen from Skada or any in-game addon. I consider GoHST really good for dungeons and 10 man raids when the glyph usage really fits the boss damage pattern and where you not always can hit 4 targets with glyphed CH because of the lower raid format. On the other side, GoEL increases the chance of the proc to 25% and it's not really hard to find that on average we'd get 1 EL proc per CH cast since in 25 man raids we have a better chance to hit 4 targets in AOE fights. All in all if you like GoHST for AOE fights, use it. I'm not against it as far as you have filled your first 2 glyphs slots with CH and ES which are mandatory and a must in any PVE scenario.

We actually do have logs, even tons of them, and I posted a typical one above: https://imgur.com/a/tNFMQQG

It doesn't show a freak scenario that I had selected to booster my own argument, it's from a random 6k+ shaman. They all look similar, just look them up. Yes, roughly 2/3 of HST goes into overhealing, while it's about 1/2 for EL, but in actual numbers HST heals for twice as much.

The acid-test is Bloodqueen obviously. Here is a log from a 6.4k shaman with GoHST on a series of wipes: https://imgur.com/a/YWZgDVU

That is the only scenario where EL gets somewhat close in performance and yet it loses again. It even overheals more than HST! Yes, of course there is a second shaman competing for the limited health pool. Here is the log of his partner, who is also 6k+: https://imgur.com/a/tPXZHCN

It shows the same picture, except it's a little bit closer because he doesn't have GoHST. Unfortunately I couldn't find any example for GoEL, because apparently NOBODY is using that glyph.

After all of that talk about how nice EL is in theory, I am starting to wonder if EL is bugged, because it performs so poorly in practice. With patch 3.3.3 they already fixed a bug with the glyph at least (https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.3). My guess is that it simply overwrites itsself quite often, so instead of getting the full duration every time, you pretty much hit the same people with CH and it will just refresh again and again. Meanwhile HST keeps ticking and ticking and ticking.

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Originally Posted by Neric

The reason for that is not to admit defeat, there is no other.

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No, the reason for that is simply that for normal people the rule is "a clear is a clear." Not everyone cares to sweaty tryhard content that doesn't require it. People like to play the way that is fun and works for them, and as long as it isn't dragging the Raid down, that's perfectly fine. You think showing Raids failed because of a Glyph choice is too much? Show Raids that had to carry someone with that Glyph then - you're the one insinuating that's what happens.

In the end of the day, it's you who refuse to accept these simple truths. Aside fresh content no one knows how to handle properly yet, there's room for people to not go after some wanna be "scientific" ideal.

Once again you are making the same mistake. It's not about a raid failing because of a single glyph. It's about performing suboptimally literally against better knowledge, at least after reading this topic. You can make tons of mistakes and still get carried, because the other 24 people will most likely will bail you out. But why should you do so? Why should you hit yourself on the foot with a hammer and be happy if you miss? There is simply no point in insisting on acting stupid. If you have EL glyphed, replace it. If you don't have it glyphed, completely in line with 99.9% of the shaman playerbase, don't even think of changing it.

I give you another example back from vanilla days: Every once in a while you meet a shaman who tries to convince you that he can tank a 5-men instance. Usually you do not invite such people, but if you want to have a good laugh, just do it and watch him make a complete ***** out of himself. There are always clowns like that. They represent the bottom 0.1% on the bell curve. Should you try to educate them? You can try, but it's totally pointless. They cannot see their mistakes, otherwise they wouldn't make them. It's their blindspot. Besides that, they can always blame the healer. All mistakes end up with the healers after all.

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Originally Posted by Neric

It's about performing suboptimally literally against better knowledge, at least after reading this topic.

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It's about playing a game to have fun and completing the objective just the same, instead of blindly following what some sweaty nobody might have said decades ago because it has some single digit or less percent gain.