Couldn't we make the same argument though to bring back double dipping ret paladins? It's an important class that doesn't chart that high even with a legendary weapon.
Maybe we undo the fix made to fire mages when they were broken because they do too much damage. We need to balance it out right?
The points being made here of it being more balanced or it's been like that forever or they never were that good anyway etc. aren't really very good arguments for undoing a bug fix.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsvanbuskirk
Also, doesn't this bug affect the gearing choice in pvp? I mean, why would anyone choose 4-set s8 bonus over 2-set Tier 10 bonus with such a game changing bug?!
Idk why they wanted to FIX it if it was working perfectly as it was it seems like it's broken rn I'm playing multiple boomies core per week 8hc+ and this called bug fix effects my game play and even my spot a lot due to the all the reasons ppl mentioned above so plz revert it back to what it was for all of these years
If it continues to be like this I believe more ppl lose interest of playing the game as I do...
It was bugged and your "working perfectly" was based on exploiting that bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magemasi
we're not saying it was not a bug, but it was a positive bug - it led to better game balance and people already adapted to it over the long years.
If you leave it fixed, all you can expect is that nobody will want to play boomie because it became underperforming spec, just like ele shaman is ... and they will lose core spots eventually anyways.
There are so many boomie players maining it and all what is going to happen (more like, is happening now already) is that they will lose their will and interest in playing the game at all.
Is that what you really want?
What I really want is to know how come none of all these Shamans ever reported this bug. Some could be new to the class and think that's just how it worked, sure... but I doubt the vast majority were oblivious. Instead the bug remained with who knows how many people all pretending it was working normally for years apparently. And now we are asked to reward that exemplary behavior by undoing a legitimate fix that, if anything, should just have happened that long ago.
We're asking you to make an exception and revert this just for the exact same reason you mentioned. It has been around for so many years that the community adapted to that as a standard. And 99% of the community did not mind, because people actually liked to play boomie, it is fun class and the performance before the fix was just right - not weak, not strong. Adequate enough to be a competitive DPS, but never doing more than mages or warriors.
Should this had been fixed many years ago, nobody would have objected, but I am afraid now it is too late for such drastic change, despite being a fix of a bug.
Many people play for numbers - competing with others in DPS on aforementioned third party logs site - and they now basically lost a chance to even get close to all the previous records. Ain't no fun for anyone anymore to be on the tail of dmg meters
That's how it always happens. A bug gives a disadvantage to players and they all come flocking here whining until it's fixed. A bug gives an advantage and everyone is silent for sometimes even years. Until one guy lets the secret out of the bag and here we are.
If any of you are actually passionate about playing boomkin and have any respect for the original game then why would you want to destroy the original integrity of the spec and essentially be playing a lie for all this time? None of you have been playing the actual spec for years is what you're confessing. And you're defending it. It's fixed now. Go enjoy it like it was meant to be played.
And seriously if you're arguing that nobody will play boomkin now then you don't know anything about how this game works or the utility of the class at all. The fact anyone here is even taking boomkin damage that seriously anyway is already funny to begin with. I'm sorry you're going to be 8th place instead of 7th. It must be a tragedy. Feels like I'm on a soap opera.
Both of your arguments for Retri Paladins and Fire Mages are single dimensional and are far off from the examples given here. I am not even familiar with the bugs you have stated, where did they exist and when? To my knowledge non of those bugs existed on Warmane. Also, as far as I know, no class benefits from double dipping, where is this coming from? You want to apply it specifically for Retri Paladins, how this argument compares or justifies itself to anything else claimed in this topic? Or your claim on Fire Mages, your example is a void, it's not even clear to what you are referring. If my reasons you have mentioned (not even all the reasons) aren't really very good, I don't know what to say about your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsvanbuskirk
Because you need the Resilience and the stats. The fact that no one ever used it, should confirm that it's not a "such game changing bug". Also, you can't compare the benefits from PVE to benefits in PVP. No one is going to let you have PVE rotation in PVP. If you want we can debate further on this, but in short I want to say that you would have to trade consistent stats versus higher chance of getting 15% dmg at random times (can't control it) and you would be taking more damage at all times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutone
I assume you meant to say Druids, not Shamans. The reason for that is it's not an obvious thing for the eye:Quote:
Originally Posted by Obnoxious
- It's a passive proc, that people don't even track it, because it's not something you can control.
- In the past we didn't have the tools to check or notice it. In the past we couldn't check buff uptimes on Skada/Details, those came in play later.
- Same for Logs, they arrived later but even Logs are not very easy to navigate through for a lot of people.
- And of course, because it was never something that noticeable to "break" the game, therefore most people haven't noticed it. And I want to give logical example here - it was million times harder for someone that wasn't playing a Balance Druid to notice it, because from the POV of anyone else, it literally makes no difference, no one would notice a Balance Druid for being an outlier in DPS or would notice if they are going out of mana or not. But if Boomies have noticed it, I would say the reason they didn't report it was because they wanted to continue to have fun and don't give up on something that they got used for so long.
And I would still argue that it's a healthy "change" for the game. So far no evidence was provided on why would this be a bad thing for the game, just people saying "bug bug bug bug" and "it shouldn't be this way, not the original way". Yes, we are aware it's a bug.
It's not some secretive bug, where it gives advantage to only handful of players. It's literally a passive that influences everyone playing the spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsvanbuskirk
We have respect for Warmane and what is happening on Warmane, if we wanted the original game and it's integrity, we wouldn't be here. The class was simply not in a healthy state in the state it was left in 2010 and that's a fact. Always on every expansion and patch some classes suffer from this and they are left out, Balance Druid was that spec and now is again with this fix implemented. It was simply way more enjoyable to play, period. It's like from living in a mansion, going back to living in your basement from 15 years ago.
I am yet to see anyone actually come up with a negative outcome from this.
that argument couldnt be made because:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsvanbuskirk
First: that bug is so old that I didnt even know it existed
Second: since the existence of logs for warmane, ret did more dmg than boomie, despite not double dipping and boomie having high OoC proccs.
Retri as a class offer much more utility than boomie, but still did more damage. Why should boomie do even less damage now if it already did less than another specc which offers more support?
Third: mages are still the top damage class, a change that made them from being #1 by far to #1 but less dominantly, is good for the game balance.
so both the fixes you named were good for the game balance
The points being made here are extremely relevant. How is "this change is objectively not good for the future of the game" by any means not a good point?
doing a normal boomie rotation and doing a logical amount of damage is not something I would consider bug exploitingQuote:
Originally Posted by Obnoxious
not everyone does big research on what the exact uptime on some random buff 15years ago was, espacially since it's pretty much impossible to gain access to such logs. On top of that, absolutely nothing was wrong with boomie dmg, so why would someone dig into "hm this boomie is 13th in dmg, let me investigate why they do so much dmg". The only thing the hightened procc of OoC did, was to make boomie a more viable specc on warmane than on blizzard's versions. How is that a bad thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obnoxious
If there was a bug that gave shadow priests or demo warlocks or enhancers etc, 1k more dps than on blizzard, would you want that changed too? Class balance was great, and these changes just make the game objectively worse and more imbalanced, why would anyone ever want that?
A very big part of your playerbase plays to compete for logs, so it would make sense to only do core changes to how the game works if there is a legitimate reason to it. random 5-10% nerfs to underperforming speccs doesnt do anything good to anyone. I highly doubt that blizzard would have done this change if their OoC happened to procc as well as it did on warmane the past decade.
Class balance is an absolute end goal, doesnt matter if it's achieved by copying good class balance off blizzard or "bugs" improving it. The moment a "bug" makes the game objectively better, it turns into a feature and there are hundreds of examples of games where they were then kept on purpose
Yes, I meant Druids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jengoftw
So let me get this straight... in all these years, with all the people playing Druids, lots of them having played on retail too, plenty with a lot of experience with the class and specialization, not a single one ever realized something that wasn't meant to happen was happening? Yet, the moment it's changed, everyone knows exactly what was fixed and isn't happening anymore? Sorry, not buying that.
There is a very big difference, between analyzing old logs, which they have no access too, having ideas of what could be different, and then take conclusions from thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Obnoxious
vs.
reading "This is exactly what we changed" from the developers of the game
In general, if you tell people exactly what happened, they tend to know what happened, rather than when they have to do detective work themselves about an "issue" which nobody realized existed, or considers an issue after it was discovered
Boomi was balanced perfectly the way it was, it was fun to play, it was far from being too strong, now it's not really fun anymore, it's underpowered. Why can't we just keep it the way it was?
I don't understand the fixation on the bug fix. It was better before.