[Guide] Combat PvE

Smourne + Gloren warrs and BiS TTW mages are the top DPSers of WotLK, so they're a little hard to beat. But yes, when BiS geared Combat rogues can compete with them and they can definitely beat hunters.

The fact of the matter is that most warriors don't know how to gear and play their spec properly, which results in my little 5.8k GS rogue in mixed gear already smashing warrs with up to 400 GS higher gear (ppl with Shadow's Edge, 4set T10 etc). And we all know that most hunters are complete slackers...

@DarkenedHue - so you're telling me rawr says that at BiS gear talents should be 2/2 Blood Spatter with GoRupture, instead of 2/3 Ruthlessness with GoEvi? That would be weird.

Yep, definitely is. And this is something that should be easily observable in-game with the correct testing too.

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Originally Posted by taralej

Smourne + Gloren warrs and BiS TTW mages are the top DPSers of WotLK, so they're a little hard to beat. But yes, when BiS geared Combat rogues can compete with them and they can definitely beat hunters.

The fact of the matter is that most warriors don't know how to gear and play their spec properly, which results in my little 5.8k GS rogue in mixed gear already smashing warrs with up to 400 GS higher gear (ppl with Shadow's Edge, 4set T10 etc). And we all know that most hunters are complete slackers...

@DarkenedHue - so you're telling me rawr says that at BiS gear talents should be 2/2 Blood Spatter with GoRupture, instead of 2/3 Ruthlessness with GoEvi? That would be weird.

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He's correct. 2/2 Blood Spatter outperforms Eviscerate. I've been using that all the time therefore I can backup his statement. And with a Feral drood it gets a lot better than GoEvi. U can check even the spredsheets :>

+ for some reason eviscerate seems to do low dmg in dis lordareon core lol

*But if you swiching targets (for example killing trash ) is rupture better when only spam evi?
*If you going 10man raid (icc) without arms war or feral dudu, still rupture rotation better when only evi spam.?
Have Rogue in lordeon realm, just intresting :) i thought what in late game with apr cap rotation will be ez, just spam evi.

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Originally Posted by Domce11

*But if you swiching targets (for example killing trash ) is rupture better when only spam evi?
*If you going 10man raid (icc) without arms war or feral dudu, still rupture rotation better when only evi spam.?
Have Rogue in lordeon realm, just intresting :) i thought what in late game with apr cap rotation will be ez, just spam evi.

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Use a bit of logic pls. Can u get all 6/10 ticks on the mob? If yes use rupture, if no go Eviscerate.
Yea rupture is still better w/o a feral. Ask you self what do u like more a chance of gettin a uhm 5-17k eviscerate or garantied ~17k rupture?


http://prntscr.com/apad03 eviscerate vs rupture http://prntscr.com/apad4d boss armor not counted so subtract ~5-10% dmg from evisceate

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Originally Posted by Domce11

*But if you swiching targets (for example killing trash ) is rupture better when only spam evi?

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That's where personal discretion comes in. Glyphed Rupture is a 20 second DoT, so I can think of a lot of situations where you'd prefer the massive upfront damage of Eviscerate (killing Valkyrs during the LK encounter, for instance). Or say if you were using Blade Flurry and wanted to hit a 2nd target with your Eviscerate too, since Rupture isn't applied to any targets hit by Blade Flurry.

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Originally Posted by Domce11

*If you going 10man raid (icc) without arms war or feral dudu, still rupture rotation better when only evi spam.?

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Spreadsheet still says yes, interestingly.

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Originally Posted by Fluffybully

+ for some reason eviscerate seems to do low dmg in dis lordareon core lol

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Did some quick testing on a dummy, and then again on a player (in a duel) and it seems like neither Eviscerate nor Rupture is benefiting from the Prey on the Weak talent, which is definitely at least one of the issues.

I tested it with auto-attacks using a low-damage range weapon, and the increase seemed to be applying correctly. I also happened to notice that when Hack and Slash procced, however, it didn't benefit from Prey on the Weak at all. Repeated the tests with Sinister Strike, and while it seemed to benefiting from Prey on the Weak, it looks like its interaction with the Meta-gem and the Lethality talent is wonky, because my crit multiplier was only 2.83, and not 2.9292, as DrDamage suggested it should be.

Didn't test Instant Poison.

I dunno, although Fluffy's screens are really evidential, Aldriana's spreadsheet shows lower DPS for my Rogue by using 2/2 Blood Spatter and low Rupture cycle over 2/3 Ruthlessness with GoE and Evi only cycle. But then again I'm still far from BiS with my rogue on Ragnaros, so I guess this is only valid then, as I get high enough AP and crit?

I am thinking about changing the guide to reflect on the low Rupture cycle, but I want to figure out when it becomes viable and why the spreadsheet shows Evi only as better for me. And yes, Fluffy, you are right about that - I sometimes see abnormally disappointing 5k Eviscerates, which I cannot explain myself. The difference between my lowest 5k Eviscerate non-crit and my highest 22k crit is just too big to be "random RNG".

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

Did some quick testing on a dummy, and then again on a player (in a duel) and it seems like neither Eviscerate nor Rupture is benefiting from the Prey on the Weak talent, which is definitely at least one of the issues.

I tested it with auto-attacks using a low-damage range weapon, and the increase seemed to be applying correctly. I also happened to notice that when Hack and Slash procced, however, it didn't benefit from Prey on the Weak at all. Repeated the tests with Sinister Strike, and while it seemed to benefiting from Prey on the Weak, it looks like its interaction with the Meta-gem and the Lethality talent is wonky, because my crit multiplier was only 2.83, and not 2.9292, as DrDamage suggested it should be.

Didn't test Instant Poison.

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The crit bonus including lethality, prey on the weak and head gem should be 2.9136, I wonder why DrDamage lists it as slightly higher. I'm gonna guess the crit bonus is currently 2.8428, I remember this was an issue some 3 years back too.

Even the friggin' EJ guides state that I should use an Evi only cycle with GoEvi on my gear, yet the spreadsheet says that one should use low Rupture at BiS gear. Where's the logic behind that? I'm getting really worked up now... Why does every official source of information I find state we should use Evi cycle + GoEvi, while 2/2 Blood Spatter and GoRup clearly does more damage for reasons that are beyond me?

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forum...-updated-2310/
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forum...pdated-for-33/

Edit: revised the guide, including glyphs, builds, low rupture vs high rupture explanation. I am still confused as to how can low Rupture be better than Evi-only at ArP hard-cap. I tested it and saw better numbers for myself too, but I just don't understand: why? It shouldn't be like that, should it?

Another question: Aldriana's spreadsheet says 10 Agi + 10 hit gems should be used beyond the ArP cap. Why not 20 AP + 10 hit? At BiS gear, the spreadsheet goes berserk, asking me to put +20 hit gems on gear and tuning the spell hit EP value to 4.15 (in case I'm poison capped with SP/boom in raid), compared to ArP's 2.97 at 1383 ArP. What the hell?

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Originally Posted by taralej

Even the friggin' EJ guides state that I should use an Evi only cycle with GoEvi on my gear, yet the spreadsheet says that one should use low Rupture at BiS gear. Where's the logic behind that? I'm getting really worked up now... Why does every official source of information I find state we should use Evi cycle + GoEvi, while 2/2 Blood Spatter and GoRup clearly does more damage for reasons that are beyond me?

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forum...-updated-2310/
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/forum...pdated-for-33/

Edit: revised the guide, including glyphs, builds, low rupture vs high rupture explanation. I am still confused as to how can low Rupture be better than Evi-only at ArP hard-cap. I tested it and saw better numbers for myself too, but I just don't understand: why? It shouldn't be like that, should it?

Another question: Aldriana's spreadsheet says 10 Agi + 10 hit gems should be used beyond the ArP cap. Why not 20 AP + 10 hit? At BiS gear, the spreadsheet goes berserk, asking me to put +20 hit gems on gear and tuning the spell hit EP value to 4.15 (in case I'm poison capped with SP/boom in raid), compared to ArP's 2.97 at 1383 ArP. What the hell?

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It's simple mate. Low rupture outclasses full evi due to constant dmg w/o needing to depend on Evi crits. BiS rogue gear ain't 4xt10 anyway therefore u dun get crit capped that easily.

https://sites.google.com/site/warman...edirects=0&d=1 2t10
https://sites.google.com/site/warman...edirects=0&d=1 4t10

There my spreadsheets from my own roggir guide

Edit: there dmg comparison rupture vs eviscerate. http://prntscr.com/aq84f9 http://prntscr.com/aq84la

Updated the guide, slimming it up a bit at the top and adding some more info about low Rupture at end-game.

Private server is your answer. In no way, shape, or form was rupture the finisher of choice on retail 3.3.5 nor was 2pc a thing either.

Yeah, I was thinking absolutely the same thing. So basically this means that there is some sort of bug with Eviscerate, then. Is that what we're reaching? To me doing 5-6k Eviscerate non-crits in ICC is just incredibly low. Or maybe the problem lies in Rupture doing too much damage, but I don't think that's the case, as far as I have observed...

If that is the case, then can someone (Abra?) test Eviscerate and give us more insight on this?

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Originally Posted by Dongwise

Private server is your answer. In no way, shape, or form was rupture the finisher of choice on retail 3.3.5 nor was 2pc a thing either.

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Say what :> ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbIWfLwp-8 . I see one of the best rogues usin rupture as the primary finisher mate.

2pc aka hit gear --> 4pc

The 13% set is meh and the extra 2,5% crit is also meh u lose all other stats. + if the crit cap works nao on dis core ( i didn't test it 2lazy) it even more meh. Even if u hit gem the 4pc u won't get better stats than 2pc. And every good rogue should know that hit + expertise is above all else. More hits equals more non-missed melee hits those result in more instant poison procs, more H&S procs, more energy regain from Combat Potency. Those 0-5 extra 3cps per boss fight from 4pc're pathetic when I can get them in 5-10 non-missed melee hits back.

Check both bis 4pc and 2pc spreadsheets and see the dps difference yourself.

@Taralej

Rupture dmg is just fine. And idk why is every1 so obsessed with Eviscerate only rotation. If eviscerate doesn't crit it does pathetic dmg compared to a constant at least average dmg from Rupture(talking about glyphed and talented rupture).

I played rogue only on retail from vanilla till the release of ICC and rupture was always primary finisher in vanilla, tbc and wotlk expansions. If it looks like im just a random fool talkin crap then why did Paragon roggs use rupture eh?

But yeah evi's dmg is too low atm. It should be above unglyphed/talented rupture or on pair (talented, glyphed rupture) with it (when it crits).