Which tanking spec is better at low gear?

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Originally Posted by Bensten

DKs have the highest single target TPS out of all tanks on warmane by simply using IT.

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"on warmane"
You word it as if it's not supposed to work that way. If you think that's the case, then I have news for you.....

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Originally Posted by taralej

Oh, also I just saw this:
The 20% haste from Icy Talons stacks with the 20% haste from Improved Icy Talons. That's not a bug. I know what angrylol means but the 20% haste just can't compare with deep Blood.

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I never said it was. I was simply stating that it's not worth the talent points to get knowing full well that there's a good chance there will be a Frost DK in the group to provide the raid melee haste. I was adding to what you said, not trying to argue with it, nub.

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Originally Posted by taralej

Lynea, for single-target Unholy Blight is far stronger than Morbidity, by the way. It depends if single-target threat is a problem for you, I guess.

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It may be, but I regularly notice how my DND is 2nd on my damage. Threat is never a problem for me, though. The only time I've had thread problems is trying to AoE tank as Frost with a MT build.

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Originally Posted by taralej

I consider Night of the Dead and Ravenous Dead very weak for tanks and Icy Reach - not worth the TPs.

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Ravenous Dead = more strength = more parry and ap
+ more health on the ghoul for a bigger Death Pact heal.

Night of the Dead and Icy Reach are situational, but I like having the added reliabillity on Death Pact and Icy Reach I find useful for picking up adds (LK is an example where it can be useful) and for kiting with chains (which I do on VDW regularly).

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Originally Posted by taralej

Honestly, I'd gladly keep to Unholy or even Frost, but Blood is just better than them in ICC. Yes, it's boring, it's straightforward, but above all I am a man of numbers and optimal performance and Blood is the spec which can deliver the most from all the 3 specs in ICC. That's just how Blizzard designed WotLK, DKs and ICC. Maybe if they did a better job we would still be able to tank with all specs. *shrug*

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For "soloing", maybe. Otherwise, I'll just agree to disagree and let you have your preference.

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Originally Posted by Lynea

I never said it was. I was simply stating that it's not worth the talent points to get knowing full well that there's a good chance there will be a Frost DK in the group to provide the raid melee haste. I was adding to what you said, not trying to argue with it, nub.

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Ye, ye :D I meant that Icy Talons 20% haste and Improved Icy Talons 20+5% haste stack together.

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Originally Posted by Lynea

more health on the ghoul for a bigger Death Pact heal.

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Uhm, no? http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=48743 heals for 40% of YOUR max Hp.

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Originally Posted by Lynea

For "soloing", maybe. Otherwise, I'll just agree to disagree and let you have your preference.

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It's WotLK, mate :/ EHP > all. Believe me, I like Unholy too and I've tanked Naxx, OS, EoE and Ulduar as Frost. But for ICC Blood is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by taralej

Uhm, no? http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=48743 heals for 40% of YOUR max Hp.

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My bad? Look at my statement for Night of the Dead also. It's not even the reason to take the talent anyway. You can't argue against strength.

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Originally Posted by taralej

It's WotLK, mate :/ EHP > all. Believe me, I like Unholy too and I've tanked Naxx, OS, EoE and Ulduar as Frost. But for ICC Blood is the way to go.

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I never said Unholy was better.
Frost is.
Because, like you said, EHP>all.

I also fail to understand why it matters which is "best". All of the specs are fully capable, enough so to allow "playstyle", preference and raid comp to actually matter. I don't know why people on this server are like that; they do it with EVERYTHING. THIS IS BEST, THE REST SUCK! Another ex., people sticking to Sindragosa's Flawless Fang and Twilight Scale, and talking **** to me when I roll on or use any other trinket.
sigh

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Originally Posted by Lynea

My bad? Look at my statement for Night of the Dead also. It's not even the reason to take the talent anyway. You can't argue against strength.

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Eh, the 3% Str is quite a small gain for 3 TPs, imo. :/

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Originally Posted by Lynea

I also fail to understand why it matters which is "best". All of the specs are fully capable, enough so to allow "playstyle", preference and raid comp to actually matter. I don't know why people on this server are like that; they do it with EVERYTHING. THIS IS BEST, THE REST SUCK! Another ex., people sticking to Sindragosa's Flawless Fang and Twilight Scale, and talking **** to me when I roll on or use any other trinket.
sigh

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Well, the trinket choice is entirely situational. People only say SFF + PTS because of the totaling sta + armor. Like, every half-decent tank knows that PTS is trash, like all <35% trinkets, so you shouldn't really put so much into such statements. Regarding specs, I wouldn't say that Frost "sucks" - I used it for some good several years - but I could say that Unholy is quite weaker compared to Blood or Frost in ICC.

Guys considering a new dk on LORDAERON (no icc no t10 ecc) for starting out what about 2 handed frost? i know frost is thought to be dual wield tank but i am quite undecided. Blood to me looks very weak without t10 because has nothing compared to frost mitigation. What would you suggest me to do?

thanks in advance

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Originally Posted by Asherdoom

Guys considering a new dk on LORDAERON (no icc no t10 ecc) for starting out what about 2 handed frost? i know frost is thought to be dual wield tank but i am quite undecided. Blood to me looks very weak without t10 because has nothing compared to frost mitigation. What would you suggest me to do?

thanks in advance

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you can get Threat of Tharassin talent, so dual wield is the way to go, with two-hander your potential will go down. Go Unholy or Blood if you want two-hander.
I don't know what mitigation you talking about for Frost, but little mitigation Frost has depends on dual wielding Death Strike.
And Blood has nice mitigation, Vampiric Blood, Will of the Necropolis, 15% heal of max from Death Strike.

Lets break down each spec purely tanking bonuses, because DPS classes can provide ANY bonus. [You gain 25% of Strength as Parry chance]
Blood
3% Stamina bonus
8% Strength bonus
Rune Tap - 20% of max HP, 30 sec CD
Have a chance equal to parry chance to take 45% less damage from direct spell.
Death Strike heals 15% of max HP
Any damage under/that would bring you under 35% is 15% lesser.
Vampiric Blood - +15% max HP, 35% increased Healing taken, 1 min CD. (glyph +5 sec duration)
Mark of Blood - Each time enemy strikes you it heals you for 4% of your max HP, 20 charges, 3 min CD (not really worth to take, but can be useful in rare situations)

Frost
Acclimation - 150 Spell resistance(it stacks to useful only when there is constant tick of damage) only few encounters.
3% less chance that melee attacks will hit you.
2% less all damage taken.
4% Strength bonus.
Death Strike Heals 20% of max HP when dual wielding. (only 10% of max HP if one weapon)
Unbreakable Armor - 25% armor and 20% Strength, 1 min CD.
6 second increased Icebound Fortitude duration.
Possible additional Death Strike from converted Blood Runes.

Unholy
3% Strength bonus.
6% less spell damage taken.
25% stronger Anti-Magic Shell. (does not have real bonus as AMS is very effective anyway)
Bone Shield - 20% less damage taken, effective if used wisely(but is it worth the effort?), 1min CD/5min duration. (glyph adds one more charge)
Death Strike heals 15% of max HP.
Anti-Magic Zone, only to avoid some de-buff applied if you have impeccable timing, it will break very fast from boss spells. 2min CD.
Possible additional Death Strike from converted Blood Runes.

These are core of each tanking spec, feel free to add if I forgot something.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

you can get Threat of Tharassin talent, so dual wield is the way to go, with two-hander your potential will go down. Go Unholy or Blood if you want two-hander.
I don't know what mitigation you talking about for Frost, but little mitigation Frost has depends on dual wielding Death Strike.
And Blood has nice mitigation, Vampiric Blood, Will of the Necropolis, 15% heal of max from Death Strike.

Lets break down each spec purely tanking bonuses, because DPS classes can provide ANY bonus. [You gain 25% of Strength as Parry chance]
Blood
3% Stamina bonus
8% Strength bonus
Rune Tap - 20% of max HP, 30 sec CD
Have a chance equal to parry chance to take 45% less damage from direct spell.
Death Strike heals 15% of max HP
Any damage under/that would bring you under 35% is 15% lesser.
Vampiric Blood - +15% max HP, 35% increased Healing taken, 1 min CD. (glyph +5 sec duration)
Mark of Blood - Each time enemy strikes you it heals you for 4% of your max HP, 20 charges, 3 min CD (not really worth to take, but can be useful in rare situations)

Frost
Acclimation - 150 Spell resistance(it stacks to useful only when there is constant tick of damage) only few encounters.
3% less chance that melee attacks will hit you.
2% less all damage taken.
4% Strength bonus.
Death Strike Heals 20% of max HP when dual wielding. (only 10% of max HP if one weapon)
Unbreakable Armor - 25% armor and 20% Strength, 1 min CD.
6 second increased Icebound Fortitude duration.
Possible additional Death Strike from converted Blood Runes.

Unholy
3% Strength bonus.
6% less spell damage taken.
25% stronger Anti-Magic Shell. (does not have real bonus as AMS is very effective anyway)
Bone Shield - 20% less damage taken, effective if used wisely(but is it worth the effort?), 1min CD/5min duration. (glyph adds one more charge)
Death Strike heals 15% of max HP.
Anti-Magic Zone, only to avoid some de-buff applied if you have impeccable timing, it will break very fast from boss spells. 2min CD.
Possible additional Death Strike from converted Blood Runes.

These are core of each tanking spec, feel free to add if I forgot something.

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thanks for your reply i wanna ask you something

I will make a blood one, seems a lot more able to survive and i wish to test this spec what you think about?

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0ERqIhcsfobsoZhg0zZ0gG

i take mark of blood for help also melee dps or myself with an additional form of self healing (ofc i got healer but i take it as "just in case" talent)
Hysteria to help best dps in melee (rogue combat says hi) during a dps race boss (patchwerk ecc)
in frost i go deep until lichborne because in case something goes ba i don't burn a lot of runic power as blood dk so i can self heal a little more , this talent goes in combo with morbidity, which helps the blood poor aoe capabilities compared to other 2 specs
bloodworms i think they ll get fixed in lordaeron so is an additional heal (i was thinking OMG MY HALT IZ LOW: when i se worms up i place mark of blood on boss +vampiric blood+spam on me death coil that should gimme a lot of heal)
death grip is my ranged taunt that's why 10 seconds less are gold to my eyes, and for that i cap unholy command
the only talent i did not put points into is SUDDEN DOOM but i don't know proc rate and if is fixed or is worth it as tank. someone can clear my mind?

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Originally Posted by Asherdoom

thanks for your reply i wanna ask you something

I will make a blood one, seems a lot more able to survive and i wish to test this spec what you think about?

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0ERqIhcsfobsoZhg0zZ0gG

i take mark of blood for help also melee dps or myself with an additional form of self healing (ofc i got healer but i take it as "just in case" talent)
Hysteria to help best dps in melee (rogue combat says hi) during a dps race boss (patchwerk ecc)
in frost i go deep until lichborne because in case something goes ba i don't burn a lot of runic power as blood dk so i can self heal a little more , this talent goes in combo with morbidity, which helps the blood poor aoe capabilities compared to other 2 specs
bloodworms i think they ll get fixed in lordaeron so is an additional heal (i was thinking OMG MY HALT IZ LOW: when i se worms up i place mark of blood on boss +vampiric blood+spam on me death coil that should gimme a lot of heal)
death grip is my ranged taunt that's why 10 seconds less are gold to my eyes, and for that i cap unholy command
the only talent i did not put points into is SUDDEN DOOM but i don't know proc rate and if is fixed or is worth it as tank. someone can clear my mind?

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Lichbourne is useful on very rare ocassion(anti fear purpouse), better use same amount of runic power to consume ghoul with Death Pact. Lichbourne is more PvP talent.
I don't know if Bloodworms are fixed, they used to fk up chain heal, circle of healing, mending and such. Ant they heal very low, I wouldn't choose that talent.
Reducing Death Grip CD is not so good, lots of bosses are immune to taunt part of spell too. Better invest same amount of points into Icy Reach in Frost, Icy Touch is heavy threat spell and almost always will get you aggro. Plus you can kite better with Chains of Ice.
Sudden DOOM is more DPS talent, you will use runes for Death Strike to heal yourself. Blood Strike(or Heart Strike) will be used rarely, just to refresh Blade Barrier, that is once per 10 secs, even not that frequently actually - Rune Tap, Vamp Blood, Mark of Blood, Pestilence use Blood Rune too.

I suggest to take Virulence in Unholy because it will give your non-melee spells faster hit cap.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Lichbourne is useful on very rare ocassion(anti fear purpouse), better use same amount of runic power to consume ghoul with Death Pact. Lichbourne is more PvP talent.
I don't know if Bloodworms are fixed, they used to fk up chain heal, circle of healing, mending and such. Ant they heal very low, I wouldn't choose that talent.
Reducing Death Grip CD is not so good, lots of bosses are immune to taunt part of spell too. Better invest same amount of points into Icy Reach in Frost, Icy Touch is heavy threat spell and almost always will get you aggro. Plus you can kite better with Chains of Ice.
Sudden DOOM is more DPS talent, you will use runes for Death Strike to heal yourself. Blood Strike(or Heart Strike) will be used rarely, just to refresh Blade Barrier, that is once per 10 secs, even not that frequently actually - Rune Tap, Vamp Blood, Mark of Blood, Pestilence use Blood Rune too.

I suggest to take Virulence in Unholy because it will give your non-melee spells faster hit cap.

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dont mean to be polemic but renounce to another self heal potential (lichborne+deathcoil) for only 3% spellhit does not seems a good bargain to me :/

concerning heart strike i believe is nice btw because is death knight version of "Cleave" which can help on our aoe threat.
Bloodworms for sure ure right they may not be worth the points.
icy reach aswell are nice you're right

so my spec would be something like this
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EM...bsoZhg0t0MZ0xh

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Originally Posted by Asherdoom

dont mean to be polemic but renounce to another self heal potential (lichborne+deathcoil) for only 3% spellhit does not seems a good bargain to me :/

concerning heart strike i believe is nice btw because is death knight version of "Cleave" which can help on our aoe threat.
Bloodworms for sure ure right they may not be worth the points.
icy reach aswell are nice you're right

so my spec would be something like this
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EM...bsoZhg0t0MZ0xh

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About Lichbourne, it heals allright, but death coil cost 40RP, same as Death Pact and heals low... I don't know.. maube 5k compared to 40% of max from Death Pact. It works, but if you are in such situation where you use up all CDs and got to self heal with Death Coil... I'm pretty sure you will get into such scenario 3 times in 5 years raiding every week. But that is just my opinion.
About Virulence, it has nice boost on spell hit because when you cap(bit over cap) melee hit rating virulence adds those 3% and you got yourself soft capped spell hit rating and it pays back every time you use spell. Missed Icy touch can mean your healers death.

Its all trial and error, just don't forget to objectively look at all this, don't take my words as absolute truth and don't be shy to reset and remake your talents if you find something not worth or maybe better in raids/party.

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Originally Posted by Asherdoom

dont mean to be polemic but renounce to another self heal potential (lichborne+deathcoil) for only 3% spellhit does not seems a good bargain to me :/

concerning heart strike i believe is nice btw because is death knight version of "Cleave" which can help on our aoe threat.
Bloodworms for sure ure right they may not be worth the points.
icy reach aswell are nice you're right

so my spec would be something like this
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EM...bsoZhg0t0MZ0xh

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I would drop http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=50034. No reason to take this on a tank. It only benefits a HS spamming gameplay and this is nothing you should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

I would drop http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=50034. No reason to take this on a tank. It only benefits a HS spamming gameplay and this is nothing you should be doing.

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mmm i see but i would take it just to use heart strike and open window for more possible death strike. is that useless heart strike as dk tank?

No, in a scenario where you're mainly concerned about TPS and not so much about survivabilty (raids which you're on farm, for example) you should have Death Rune Mastery for 4xHS instead of 2xDS. Having Death Rune Mastery doesn't mean you can't 2xDS, of course. It just means you're investing 3 TPs so you can also 4xHS.

And yes, Sudden Doom is a purely threat-oriented talent with very low contribution unless you talent & glyph for Death Coil. The fun part about Sudden Doom is that it can also proc on the "cleaved" target from Heart Strike. I linked it above, but here it is again - this is the talent build which I'm using. Without Epidemic you can't execute a proper rotation with 2 rune cycles. People will often advise you to pick up Glyph of Disease, but in doing so you will reduce the value of Imp Icy Touch and lose some overall TPS. Morbidity is for off-tanking - it's frustrating to off-tank LK or any other add-spawning encounter without this talent - the amazing thing about it is that it basically allows you to have DnD on the ground for 10 seconds with a 15 second cooldown.

This build is the best-rounded but people will always have their own preferences, so I'll mention the other options too. You can pick Unholy Command for additional help with off-tanking (useful on LK, Vali, LDW and Gunship), taking a point from Mark of Blood and Sudden Doom. You might also want Icy Reach for the extra range, which also helps with off-tanking via Icy Touch. And then there is the option of going hybrid Blood + Frost. This build drops a lot of the deep Blood talents for the sake of picking up Frigid Dreadplate and Icy Talons. This gives you 3% more avoidance and more Rune Strikes overall. I personally dislike this build because it messes up with your whole spec for the sake of +3% avoidance and 20% haste. Alas, most Warmane players think that it's better for some reason...

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Originally Posted by taralej

No, in a scenario where you're mainly concerned about TPS and not so much about survivabilty (raids which you're on farm, for example) you should have Death Rune Mastery for 4xHS instead of 2xDS. Having Death Rune Mastery doesn't mean you can't 2xDS, of course. It just means you're investing 3 TPs so you can also 4xHS.

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The talent is useless in any AoE oriented situation beside facing exactly 2 targets. Before you are able to use the extra HS it's way more efficient to drop a new DnD.

If you - for whatever reason I won't understand - want to keep HS, drop http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=50034 and http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49039 and get http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=53137 and http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49036.

It's not useless for AoE. For 2-3 targets HS is the way to go, yes, but DRM also allows for more Blood Boils when you have more targets. And then there's also the versatility of having Death Runes available for cooldowns when you don't have Blood Tap up. I mean, I just can't see any other viable option as you go down the tree. Vendetta is a leveling talent, Spell Deflection doesn't work on most PvE encounters, just like Warriors' Spell Reflection. Bloodworms don't work, and even if they did, they're not that good of a talent. Improved Blood Presence is useless. As a BDK you don't have RP issues to pick Scent of Blood because you only use RP for Rune Strike - there're just no free GCDs to use Death Coil.

I'm talking about my spec though. If we're talking about non-DRM, non-deep Blood, then you'd have 2 free GCDs for Death Coil and you'd also have some free TPs from Bloody Strikes, DRM and deep Blood. But as you said these are far better off in Morbidity and Epidemic rather than in situational filler talents.