This server will become P2W ?

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

By your definition, someone who buys a mount in the WoW store is "paying to win," then, which most people would consider a ridiculous point of view.

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Considering they cannot use a 280% mount without the appropriate riding skill, only buying the 310% mounts would fall under the "advantage" category. Otherwise stuff like that is cosmetic and offers no advantage. Regardless of how small one may view that 30% increase, it is still greater than 280%. When you start drawing lines on how "how much of an advantage" is Pay-Win" then you fall into opinion territory, which is why any advantage should be considered "winning" in a sense.

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Originally Posted by Radvo

Except the person driving will pay more. Bad example.

You're not paying to win, you're paying to skip content.

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Skipping content = saving time.

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Originally Posted by Bioness

Considering they cannot use a 280% mount without the appropriate riding skill, only buying the 310% mounts would fall under the "advantage" category.



Skipping content = saving time.

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time = gear

gear = (in this game) bigger deepz and stronger in pvp

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Originally Posted by Bioness

Considering they cannot use a 280% mount without the appropriate riding skill, only buying the 310% mounts would fall under the "advantage" category.

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They have something you can't get without paying. Collections will be incomplete unless you pay.
"Advantage" doesn't has to be something that involves game mechanics, only getting something by paying. That would make those mounts the de facto "pay to win," since you can't get them in-game at all, while equipment you still can get without donating, you'll just have to play the game more instead.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

They have something you can't get without paying. Collections will be incomplete unless you pay.
"Advantage" doesn't has to be something that involves game mechanics, only getting something by paying. That would make those mounts the de facto "pay to win," since you can't get them in-game at all, while equipment you still can get without donating, you'll just have to play the game more instead.

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but mounts and gear,we speak about two really different things...mount doesn't give you power,is cosmetic...and paying for cosmetic stuff is actually blizzlike...

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Originally Posted by Uzihunter

but mounts and gear,we speak about two really different things...mount doesn't give you power,is cosmetic...and paying for cosmetic stuff is actually blizzlike...

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So you're saying that if a collector says the game is "pay to win" because he can't get all mounts and pets without paying, you'll say that he's wrong and that your definition is right instead, because reasons?

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

They have something you can't get without paying. Collections will be incomplete unless you pay.
"Advantage" doesn't has to be something that involves game mechanics, only getting something by paying. That would make those mounts the de facto "pay to win," since you can't get them in-game at all, while equipment you still can get without donating, you'll just have to play the game more instead.

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Advantage in the sense of vanity and showcasing...I suppose one could count that. Although I thinking more in terms of tangible worth, those mounts may look pretty but you won't be clearing raids or gain points in Arena with them.

Though they will count for the achievements, but then the achievement points aren't worth anything and even the rewards you get are cosmetic additions to the game. You never get gear or any items that affect combat from achievements do you? Achievement points don't give any advantage. If you could buy achievements, that would not be Pay-To-Win, so long as the reason for getting that achievement isn't translated into what the achievement was originally unlocked by (No unlocking raid tiers, etc).

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

So you're saying that if a collector says the game is "pay to win" because he can't get all mounts and pets without paying, you'll say that he's wrong and that your definition is right instead, because reasons?

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well,I only want to say that this breaks feeling of progression and HC,and many will agree...collecting mount etc.is maybe important for someone,but still,we don't play pokemons or warlords of draenor,so HC progression through content should be numero uno...I can obtain that gear but that guy with money will get god damn big advantage and I really think that's not fair...but on other hand,I'm open minded person and I will give time to see how this will work out

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Originally Posted by Bioness

Advantage in the sense of vanity and showcasing...I suppose one could count that. Although I thinking more in terms of tangible worth, those mounts may look pretty but you won't be clearing raids or gain points in Arena with them.

Though they will count for the achievements, but then the achievement points aren't worth anything and even the rewards you get are cosmetic additions to the game. You never get gear or any items that affect combat from achievements do you? Achievement points don't give any advantage. If you could buy achievements, that would not be Pay-To-Win, so long as the reason for getting that achievements isn't translated into game (unlocking raids and what not).

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But you can appreciate the fact that what constitutes "pay to win" can differ from player to player, no? That's made even more clear here, when a player is disagreeing with your definition.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

But you can appreciate the fact that what constitutes "pay to win" can differ from player to player, no? That's made even more clear here, when a player is disagreeing with your definition.

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People are also of the opinion that gravity isn't real and that the world is flat, that doesn't make those subject matters subjective now does it? Though if you really want to dissect all that is, the only things in the world not subject to opinion are math and your own mind, but that is neither here nor there.

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Originally Posted by Bioness

People are also of the opinion that gravity isn't real and the world is flat, that doesn't make those subject matters subjective does it? Though if you really want to dissect all that is, the only things in the world not subject to opinion are math and your own mind, but that is neither here nor there.

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Except that this isn't gravity of the shape of planets. What's important to you isn't for others. You'd consider buying achievements to be "pay to win" while others couldn't care less if that was possible. Getting vanity items is fine for you, but others can be perfectly justified in claiming you're skipping all the grinding involved in getting those items or mounts. Saving time makes it "pay to win" for you, but many people won't care, as long as they can get the same things by playing the game.

Bottom line is: what's "pay to win" for you is your opinion, and it being shared by others doesn't makes it a final definition.

Private servers survive on donations. They all tend to "reward" for donations for very obvious reasons. Hence all private servers are pay to win. As a result, no private server can ever be hardcore no matter how hard they try, because some rich fellow will always be able to get ahead, which defeats the very purpose of hardcore.

I don't even know why Warmane tried to do this, but it's their server and they can do as they see fit.

For the record, I understand that the staff seems to think of this as a PvE focused realm, but not once has the effect of PvE gear being available through higher coin costs, while raids get buffed on the PvP scene been considered. Expect arenas to be dominated by PvE players simply due to how PvE gear scales compared to pvp in wotlk.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Except that this isn't gravity of the shape of planets. What's important to you isn't for others. You'd consider buying achievements to be "pay to win" while others couldn't care less if that was possible. Getting vanity items is fine for you, but others can be perfectly justified in claiming you're skipping all the grinding involved in getting those items or mounts. Saving time makes it "pay to win" for you, but many people won't care, as long as they can get the same things by playing the game.

Bottom line is: what's "pay to win" for you is your opinion, and it being shared by others doesn't makes it a final definition.

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Fair enough. How about this then, do you think differing opinions of the definition may be attributed to the negative connotation Pay-To-Win may something have? In other words if a person's perception of Pay-To-Win is largely negative, they are less likely to use the term to products they are favorable of?

Oh my God nobody cares what means pay to win Jesus! All that we care is that people who are rich and/or spoiled don't get to simply go ahead of others who
play fairly and work hard on the game. You can say that such people are selfish, but the other ones are (who pay to win) are even worse. They dont pay to get a raid done or to be top dps and brag about it, they do it for the sole purpose of making others feel bad for not being able to pay to win like they do, making them regret ever making a character here. They behave like this because they don't have the feel of what it means to play hard and earn your gear.
I belive that true pay to skip gring is alowing people to buy all the item level 251 and around that icc 10n sets, and play to get all the rest.

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Originally Posted by Bioness

Fair enough. How about this then, do you think differing opinions of the definition may be attributed to the negative connotation Pay-To-Win may something have? In other words if a person's perception of Pay-To-Win is largely negative, they are less likely to use the term to products they are favorable of?

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Yes, people use "pay to win" to complain about someone else having something they don't.
At its root, it's an envy-based term, especially when all said "pay" does is save time.

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Originally Posted by medocar

Oh my God nobody cares what means pay to win Jesus! All that we care is that people who are rich and/or spoiled don't get to simply go ahead of others who
play fairly and work hard on the game. You can say that such people are selfish, but the other ones are (who pay to win) are even worse. They dont pay to get a raid done or to be top dps and brag about it, they do it for the sole purpose of making others feel bad for not being able to pay to win like they do, making them regret ever making a character here. They behave like this because they don't have the feel of what it means to play hard and earn your gear.
I belive that true pay to skip gring is alowing people to buy all the item level 251 and around that icc 10n sets, and play to get all the rest.

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People with money get ****, in other news water is wet. Mercy and Obnoxious already explained what the plan for the shop is.

You can play hard and get that gear "correctly" should you want a sense of pride in gear earned well. Play how you want to play, big guy, don't worry about that spoiled kid with infinite daddy's money or the guy who doesn't want to work to get status, you do you.