As usual.. Ninja looting bans

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Originally Posted by romz

Or the fact that you seem to think Dual Wielding is actually required shows you don't know anything about enhancement.

You do realize that you can pick what talents you want right?

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So in your opinion 6%! free hit is useless when you have to aim for at the very least spell hit cap?Or simply having higher amounts of Maelstrom procs?
You can pick whatever talents you want,that doesn't mean you get to raid with them.

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Originally Posted by romz

Just because something is "gimmicky" does not make it bad or less viable. A person raids to gain the gear they want for their class/spec regardless. There is generally no priority in what use the gear has for a spec. Especially since you do have to do some PvE for PvP in WotLK for Offset/Weapons.

As for your Fury Warrior comparison Titan's Grip is completely optional as a talent, you can always dump that talent point elsewhere if you want to use 2 1h weapons.

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So you'd give a melee weapon to a hunter first,which uses it as a stat stick,and has way less impact on his dps then to a melee class because in your opinion there's no usage priority?I bet you can see a lot of melee hunters,ranged rogues,warriors dual wielding one handed weapons/using staffs or to stay on topic two handed enhancement shamans in raids.
Yes,you don't want a gimmicky spec even on normal modes,you want the best dps specs - hence no sub rogues,bm/sv hunters,frost mages,arms warriors or two handed enhancement shamans are present in any raid when the leader has a functioning brain.Please prove that you come at least close in the same gear excluding weapons to a dual wielding spec in a raid.Or any of the above specs.This is 3.3.5,when these specs are not viable anymore for pve,there's a reason why all the talents that are used for raiding are based on the same cookie cutter formulas - you want the best results,not sub-par choices based on what you think is good,the points you can play around with are extremely limited.
You can dump Titan's Grip,and your raiding career as warrior dps with it while you're at it.Since there's no SMF in wotlk,no one handed weapons with strength,dual wielding one handed weapons is ******ed for a fury warrior,especially when you consider that one of your bis weapons is Shadowmourne.

BM hunter is actually not that bad i have seen bm hunters doing 15k dps in icc and 8-9k in other raid.enh 2h however ....dunno maybe he can do 2-3k in ICC.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

I'm not arguing about what is or is not bad and/or viable. That much is irrelevant. What is relevant is what a raid leader and their raid group are going to decide is acceptable for rolls. If you are a person that is granted an item that is not within the established loot rules provided by the raid leader, then guess what? That's ninja-looting. Whether you think it is or not can be argued, but that's not the policy. The policy is very clear.

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That is again implying that the Loot Rules were stated and the OP broke the rules stated by the Raid Leader. On top of that, they called him a "Ninja" for rolling on a 2h weapon where the other classes that could use it were going to use it for their Off Spec if anything. The whole situation is a giant **** storm.

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Originally Posted by Skoobydoo

BM hunter is actually not that bad i have seen bm hunters doing 15k dps in icc and 8-9k in other raid.enh 2h however ....dunno maybe he can do 2-3k in ICC.

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Yes,but as a leader you want 15k or 18k from your hunters?The best way to go is MM sadly,i do admit i did enjoy BM hunter but it can't compete with MM if we're talking about the same skill level for both specs with the gear aviable and on 3.3.5.About 2h enhancement - i think it may surpass tanks thanks to buffs/pots/bl so around 5-6k.

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Originally Posted by SilverFlash

Yes,but as a leader you want 15k or 18k from your hunters?The best way to go is MM sadly,i do admit i did enjoy BM hunter but it can't compete with MM if we're talking about the same skill level for both specs with the gear aviable and on 3.3.5.About 2h enchancement - i think it may surpass tanks thanks to buffs/pots/bl so around 5-6k.

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15k is more then most players do. you will most likely be top 3 dps in pug raids with this numbers and you will have 0 problems clearing ICC with dps like that.my point is BM way not be optimal spec but its real viable spec and you will have no problems geting into raids.
on other hand i refuse to believe that any raid leader will inv 2h enh in his raid.you just cant put 2h enh and bm hunter in same category.hell i am pretty sure BM hunter can outdps enh shaman even if the shaman is using normal slow 1h weapons + hunter can also bring hero/bl buff.
anyway if shaman want to play 2h sure he can do whatever he likes no one can stop him,but if you take 2h over warrior/DK/Ret who need it....then this is a problem.
same apply for eng with daggers btw,because i have actually seen dagger enh shamans in pug raids before.

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enchancement shamans

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Enhancement. Enhancement shaman. An enchanter is someone who applies magical properties to gear. An Enhancement shaman is a class that uses self buffs and totems to "enhance" their melee weapon(s) and those of the groups.

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Originally Posted by Wymorne

Enhancement. Enhancement shaman. An enchanter is someone who applies magical properties to gear. An Enhancement shaman is a class that uses self buffs and totems to "enhance" their melee weapon(s) and those of the groups.

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Thanks for pointing that out,but fyi not everyone speaks english as their main language,especially at late after work.Fixed typos.Grammatik macht frei.

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Originally Posted by romz

That is again implying that the Loot Rules were stated and the OP broke the rules stated by the Raid Leader. On top of that, they called him a "Ninja" for rolling on a 2h weapon where the other classes that could use it were going to use it for their Off Spec if anything. The whole situation is a giant **** storm.

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For that specific situation, sure. But I wasn't speaking to the effect of that, which you need to recognize if you're going to try and counter what I stated.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

For that specific situation, sure. But I wasn't speaking to the effect of that, which you need to recognize if you're going to try and counter what I stated.

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Which also applies to all situations. Most players are already fully geared. Only exceptions are alts/new players. Doesn't stop the fact that a Ninja Looter is someone who breaks loot rules when Loot Rules are stated before the raid starts.

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Originally Posted by romz

Which also applies to all situations. Most players are already fully geared. Only exceptions are alts/new players.

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False and irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by romz

Doesn't stop the fact that a Ninja Looter is someone who breaks loot rules when Loot Rules are stated before the raid starts.

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That is correct, but that amounts to saying "Granite is a type of stone".

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Originally Posted by Mercy

False and irrelevant.


That is correct, but that amounts to saying "Granite is a type of stone".

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That is correct, if it is correct it wouldn't warrant a ban in this case. But as I said earlier, we may be only getting half the story.

The first is actually true and relevant especially when people all the time ask to be geared to do a raid. Which makes it difficult for other players who are wanting to do the raid for the gear, but they can't cause they are supposed to already have the gear. Which is even more relevant in this case when people were rolling for off spec.

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Originally Posted by Dralanne1

you seem to miss the the fact that 2h enha is still viable in pvp.

if a player joins a dungeon/raid for item wich he needs for pvp, i do think it is a decent reason to let him roll for it.

cus, you know you only do pve to get gear for pvp after all...
its a fact that pvp > pve.

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Show me a successful 2handed Enhancement Shaman in WOTLK PVP, it's a fact that PVE > PVP.

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Originally Posted by romz

As for your Fury Warrior comparison Titan's Grip is completely optional as a talent, you can always dump that talent point elsewhere if you want to use 2 1h weapons.

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And a Fury Warrior using 1handed weapons can do "ok" dps, but it's still making an objectively bad choice when it comes to your character, you are making a decision to step away from the intended gameplay of the spec and do less dps.. When you're rolling on this 1handed weapon you're almost certainly rolling on a downgrade to your current weapon in order to play a non viable spec.

Of course yes you can gear a Fury Warrior to the balls with the best gear and give him the 2 highest ilvl 1handers and he/she will do dps, just as you can equip a Shadow Priest with the best gear in the game and a level 70 weapon and do dps.. It's still nonsense.

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Originally Posted by bigbazz

Show me a successful 2handed Enhancement Shaman in WOTLK PVP, it's a fact that PVE > PVP.



And a Fury Warrior using 1handed weapons can do "ok" dps, but it's still making an objectively bad choice when it comes to your character, you are making a decision to step away from the intended gameplay of the spec and do less dps.. When you're rolling on this 1handed weapon you're almost certainly rolling on a downgrade to your current weapon in order to play a non viable spec.

Of course yes you can gear a Fury Warrior to the balls with the best gear and give him the 2 highest ilvl 1handers and he/she will do dps, just as you can equip a Shadow Priest with the best gear in the game and a level 70 weapon and do dps.. It's still nonsense.

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But...you can't compare a level 70 weapon for a shadow priest to a fury warrior using the 2 hgihest ilevel for 1 handed weapons. You just can't.

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Originally Posted by romz

But...you can't compare a level 70 weapon for a shadow priest to a fury warrior using the 2 hgihest ilevel for 1 handed weapons. You just can't.

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Yes you can, because you know both of those situations would still result in those classes if played by good players actually doing respectible dps. In WOTLK retail my guild actually did kill Heroic Blood Queen while the entire raid had level 70 weapons equipped for lols, but just because you can it doesn't mean there is any logic to it.

With the Warrior you have it using a weapon and spec that goes against the conventional logic and design of the spec, you're purposely just making a bad decision. With the Priest example you're using the right weapon type and spec but purposely taking a lower quality weapon, the end result is the same.. You have for subjective reasons decided to go against the mould and make a gearing choice that goes against conventional logic and actively lowers your dps.

Is it Ninja looting? Well Ninja looting is a pretty subjective topic that has a lot of unwritten (and written) rules, if a Fury Warrior in WOTLK takes a 1 handed weapon away from a Rogue then it is ninja looting, regardless of whether it can be equipped for use.. The same is true with the 2h Enhancement shaman.

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Originally Posted by bigbazz

Yes you can, because you know both of those situations would still result in those classes if played by good players actually doing respectible dps. In WOTLK retail my guild actually did kill Heroic Blood Queen while the entire raid had level 70 weapons equipped for lols, but just because you can it doesn't mean there is any logic to it.

With the Warrior you have it using a weapon and spec that goes against the conventional logic and design of the spec, you're purposely just making a bad decision. With the Priest example you're using the right weapon type and spec but purposely taking a lower quality weapon, the end result is the same.. You have for subjective reasons decided to go against the mould and make a gearing choice that goes against conventional logic and actively lowers your dps.

Is it Ninja looting? Well Ninja looting is a pretty subjective topic that has a lot of unwritten (and written) rules, if a Fury Warrior in WOTLK takes a 1 handed weapon away from a Rogue then it is ninja looting, regardless of whether it can be equipped for use.. The same is true with the 2h Enhancement shaman.

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Actually you can't.

The Fury Warrior has HIGH TIER GEAR vs a Shadow Priest that has a level 70 WEAPON. Two separate things.

Ninja Looting (in warmane's sense) is ONLY applied if someone breaks loot rules that WERE STATED before the start of the raid. If it wasn't stated, then you can't be a ninja. It is black and white.