what design philosophy do warmane developers follow lately?

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Originally Posted by Arbiterone

I think you're not telling the whole story when quoting "this is how it was on 3.4.3". Could you give an example of such reply?

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I was referring to the Deep Wounds topic:
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/129120

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Originally Posted by Arbiterone

We're not trying to copy classic, instead we want stay as close as possible to 3.3.5a. But, we want to fix 3.3.5a's bugs too, and sometimes it may be that a bug fix implemented during classic can be enough proof that the previous 3.3.5a behaviour was unintended.

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Good to hear that the real aim is to be as close as possible to 3.3.5a, but I think being open for changes, especially quality of life changes or things that have positive impact are good to have, even if they are different from 3.3.5a. Your answer already covers the Deep Wounds topic. For this case the change on Classic might confirm that the 3.3.5 behaviour was unintended, but not necessarily, it easily might have been something they decided on the moment as well, they had many illogical changes that the community didn't support but had to adapt, which even though I would say it's not a good thing to force changes like that, it makes a bit more sense when the server is fresh. I think the impact is different when things were around for a while. But this, same as OoC change, I would say goes under the "sensitive category", because class changes can have big impact on players. For that, I think this a great move from Warmane, to post a report like that and keep it open for feedback. Though, I disagree with the immediate implementation before hearing out the players. I wish the same was done for Omen of Clarity/Balance Druids.

Currently, from what I saw, people are sharing their opinions in this report channel:
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/123856
But this feels very counterproductive, because people can't even upvote it to bring attention to it, because in that case upvoting it could mean that the change/nerf is supported, but as you can see 99% of the comments are against it. I don't even know if those comments are reaching out to you guys (if you are receiving notifications). I believe if it had it's own report channel, it would have a very big reach, when I say maybe as big as the Hunter situation, I mean it, because the impact it had on the class is massive.

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Originally Posted by Arbiterone

There was a big cryout during the hunter controversy, and it was fair enough that the devs decided to revert it. It's very unlikely that this will happen again. But, the best way to reach out to the devs on a subject that goes beyond bug fixing is the suggestion section of the forums. It's a place that the devs do read and may decide or not to go through with the suggestion.

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Yes, I fully agree that reverting the hunter change was fair and absolutely the best decision for the community. That's very sad if it was a one time thing only, because I don't think you did something bad with that other than giving the community what they wanted, which is ultimately the best decision and in favor of both parties.

Sorry for being repetitive, but to fully confirm, is that report (for OoC) where people shared their comments irrelevant and should I make a new thread in the suggestion section in the forum? Or even if it is relevant, should I open a thread anyway?

@Obnoxious (sorry couldn't figure out how to reply to two different people in the same reply)

More than getting staff attention, what I ultimately aimed to do with my report was to explain to the community the impact of that change (because it's not a thing to notice that easily with an eye) and also show the staff what the community thinks of that change, I didn't have any bad intentions, here is my original report, that go dismissed right away:
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/129113

And yes, I am aware and I don't mean to get answers out of you, I was more interested to know how to proceed with my problem, who to turn to and where to head to find a solution.

I was aware that my "bug report" wasn't an ordinary one, but I think it was a valid one. And yes, because I didn't receive an answer, I was frustrated and looking to get some answers from somewhere.

I am aware feedback won't guarantee a reversion, but at least I would know that I brought it up to community's and staffs' attention and that I have tried.

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Originally Posted by Arbiterone

Since Onyxia is it's own thing and the progression part of it is really important, perhaps having ToC and ToGC be different IDs is fair enough. But again, this falls into suggestion territory. I don't know of every individual choice the dev team makes for the game, but a good suggestion thread can add ideas or change their mind on a subject. Keep in mind though that when making a suggestion, you're trying to convince someone about something, you have to be really fair and reasonable to increase your chances of convincing them. They do read threads from the suggestion section and they have made changes from it.

Deep wounds wasn't changed for balance reasons (we've never considered 'balance' when fixing bugs), it was changed because it was determined it being procced on spells wasn't intended behaviour. WotLK 3.3.5a is an old game, if we left it be with all it's old bugs, players would find newer and newer ways to exploit it and the meta itself would shift towards abusing unintended behaviour.

And it is true, something being a bug or not can be subjective and difficult to determine sometimes -- which is why we'll always be open to discussion, and a decision still could be reverted in the future. But if something can be proven as a bug, then they want to know about it so they can fix it.



I think you're not telling the whole story when quoting "this is how it was on 3.4.3". Could you give an example of such reply?
We're not trying to copy classic, instead we want stay as close as possible to 3.3.5a. But, we want to fix 3.3.5a's bugs too, and sometimes it may be that a bug fix implemented during classic can be enough proof that the previous 3.3.5a behaviour was unintended.



There was a big cryout during the hunter controversy, and it was fair enough that the devs decided to revert it. It's very unlikely that this will happen again. But, the best way to reach out to the devs on a subject that goes beyond bug fixing is the suggestion section of the forums. It's a place that the devs do read and may decide or not to go through with the suggestion.

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Thanks a lot for bothering with giving actually useful answers and explanations, rather than ignoring or dismissing this. I really appreciate it.
As a non-hunter player I was very glad to see that change get reverted and I do hope that this can be done for some of the other changes too for the sake of a better game for everybody. thanks for heading us into the right direction of where such things could be discussed

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Originally Posted by Jengoftw

@Obnoxious (sorry couldn't figure out how to reply to two different people in the same reply)

More than getting staff attention, what I ultimately aimed to do with my report was to explain to the community the impact of that change (because it's not a thing to notice that easily with an eye) and also show the staff what the community thinks of that change, I didn't have any bad intentions, here is my original report, that go dismissed right away:
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/129113

And yes, I am aware and I don't mean to get answers out of you, I was more interested to know how to proceed with my problem, who to turn to and where to head to find a solution.

I was aware that my "bug report" wasn't an ordinary one, but I think it was a valid one. And yes, because I didn't receive an answer, I was frustrated and looking to get some answers from somewhere.

I am aware feedback won't guarantee a reversion, but at least I would know that I brought it up to community's and staffs' attention and that I have tried.

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Then, like I said, a Forum thread discussing it is what you're looking for. You can do your explaining to the community, Staff can read and interact (or not), it won't be dismissed since it won't be essentially misusing the Bug Tracker (you didn't report anything bugged, you just used a report to try to get a legitimate fix reverted because you felt it was unnecessary), and if people keep it civil it won't get locked and people can continue discussing it.

Hi all, wanted to add my 5 cents to Deep Wounds/Oil of Immolation topic.
Out of all warriors on the server only about 1% (usually only BIS or close to BIS warriors) did use Oil of Immolation to do logs which were uploaded to non-warmane website (not sure if it's okay to post link here but I am sure pretty much everyone knows it)
99% of other people didn't use Oil of Immolation while playing warrior, they used beer to chill and click 1 2 3 in the raid.
Oil of Immolation approximately in the best case could give up to 2k additional dps.

What is happening now? Now suddenly 1% of the warrior players on server got the information that Oil of Immolation doesn't work. Other 99% of the warriors still drink beer and chill clicking 1 2 3 and have no idea and don't care that it happened.

What's the problem with all of it? That non-warmane logs website most likely won't delete any logs for the warriors who did use Oil of Immolation. And now Oil of Immolation doesn't work. So now every warrior lost up to 2k dps. And now every warrior can't do top logs anymore.

What would you suggest to do 1% of the warriors that cared about dps now? Forget about it, get beer and chill while clicking 1 2 3?

Without intending to judge the merits of the changes: the server has gone fast from deriding classic, to accepting videos from classic as proofs of bugs, to now directly introducing changes from classic.

It was all good when the policy was clear, "no changes from classic". Now we have a new behaviour for Deep Wounds, but hunters do not have trap launchers.

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Originally Posted by Shred

Without intending to judge the merits of the changes: the server has gone fast from deriding classic, to accepting videos from classic as proofs of bugs, to now directly introducing changes from classic.

It was all good when the policy was clear, "no changes from classic". Now we have a new behaviour for Deep Wounds, but hunters do not have trap launchers.

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If the behaviour during 3.3.5a and classic are exactly the same, what would be the problem of accepting classic videos as proof of a bug?

And this "change from classic" is a bug fix valid for the 3.3.5a version of the game. If someone finds a new bug that existed back in 3.3.5a retail that allows the zergling class to deal 100x more damage. but this bug was only discovered today, we will want to fix it. If we mantain the mentality that 3.3.5a bugs should remain in the game, then as players find new exploits to play with, the more distant the game will become from the retail version as the meta shifts towards exploiting.

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Originally Posted by Phoen1xRed

Hi all, wanted to add my 5 cents to Deep Wounds/Oil of Immolation topic.
Out of all warriors on the server only about 1% (usually only BIS or close to BIS warriors) did use Oil of Immolation to do logs which were uploaded to non-warmane website (not sure if it's okay to post link here but I am sure pretty much everyone knows it)
99% of other people didn't use Oil of Immolation while playing warrior, they used beer to chill and click 1 2 3 in the raid.
Oil of Immolation approximately in the best case could give up to 2k additional dps.

What is happening now? Now suddenly 1% of the warrior players on server got the information that Oil of Immolation doesn't work. Other 99% of the warriors still drink beer and chill clicking 1 2 3 and have no idea and don't care that it happened.

What's the problem with all of it? That non-warmane logs website most likely won't delete any logs for the warriors who did use Oil of Immolation. And now Oil of Immolation doesn't work. So now every warrior lost up to 2k dps. And now every warrior can't do top logs anymore.

What would you suggest to do 1% of the warriors that cared about dps now? Forget about it, get beer and chill while clicking 1 2 3?

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I would seriously love if we had our own logs website, with seasons so that players can compete.

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Originally Posted by Arbiterone

I would seriously love if we had our own logs website, with seasons so that players can compete.

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Same here. So far I can see 3 ways to fix this Oil of Immolation/Deep Wounds problem.
1) Revert the changes (Only 1% of warriors use it, others don't care and don't know about it)
2) Contact administrator of that website to ask to invalidate all the warrior logs with Oil of Immolation.
3) Make your own official logs website within a reasonable timeframe that will reflect patches and invalidate "bad" logs.

Otherwise (in my opinion) what you get is loud active and frustrated 1% of warriors on the server which either stop trying to do their best for logs (since now it's impossible because suddenly you get permanent -2k dps debuff) or simply stop playing warrior at all.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Then, like I said, a Forum thread discussing it is what you're looking for. You can do your explaining to the community, Staff can read and interact (or not), it won't be dismissed since it won't be essentially misusing the Bug Tracker (you didn't report anything bugged, you just used a report to try to get a legitimate fix reverted because you felt it was unnecessary), and if people keep it civil it won't get locked and people can continue discussing it.

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Sure thing, thanks for help.

I also wanted to write a lot here, but Phoen1xRed already did it and I completely agree with him. I want to add on my own that I understand the warmane policy regarding bug fixing, but please do not forget that this is a game, and the game should bring fun. Yes oil can really be exploited, but who does it harm? I am one of those 1% of warriors who use oil and I happily compete with other strong wars, everyone was happy with it. Most often, fixing bugs is right, but for whom is this fix good? Who will benefit from this fix? Only a lost mood/desire to play for strong players on the server who have a passion to play well.

It definitely feels like the recent bug fixes have been just making the game less fun in my opinion. I used to get excited to see the bug reports and what is changed, but now I am genuinely scared of them cuz I don't know what aspect of the game will get removed. Maybe it's because recent bug fixes have all been around removing "x" from happening so it just feels that way but I wish we would get more bug fixes / changes where it would make it more fun to play not less fun.