Spending hours for world buffs, then getting ganked by hordes.

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Originally Posted by AeredonXIV

How would it possibly be rough to convince people of this when there is already clear friction and feedback being given towards the problem being discussed?

I've already made a suggestion and it was simple. Add the chronoboon. It addresses the issue of raid logging and stops griefing. Theres nothing interesting or enjoyable about spending hours upon hours to acquire your WB's then log out of your character you want to play until raid night, only to arrive and get griefed by multiboxers spamming dispels on your raid. This is not quality wpvp in any sense. Players will still congregate to gank outside of the raid entrances because its beneficial to them, but it doesn't have to waste hours of peoples efforts or force people to not play their mains for a extended period of time. This kind of interaction was never intended by design and thats why Blizzard addressed it by adding the Chronoboon. With how many changes that have already been made, it makes no sense to argue against having it. The core concepts of what made vanilla wow what it was, is already ruined with the changes that have been made. The problems we're discussing are part of the reason the overall activity on the server has gone through a steep decline.

I appreciate your efforts to have a constructive conversation about this however, but there will still be friction and interesting gameplay with a Chronoboon added to the game. WPVP won't suddenly die. If anything it will make people more willing to fight rather than always attempt to avoid conflict, much like how it works on era realms now. I'll have to check back in, in the future, but for now I have to handle some work. Have a good one mate.

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why is raid logging an issue?
what do you mean by griefing? Getting dispelled or killed is not griefing.
Why do people spend hours and hours getting WB, if it's not even necessary?
Shouldn't you have the advantage in killing them when having WB?
Having cronoboon or not having it will not impact wpvp, people ho want to do pvp will pvp, who don't - wont.

Give us your data that correlates WB dispelling with activity decline.


Basically what you said is, you want to do big boy dps and show off, but you cant be bothered with efforts and risks it requires. Do they really need to change aspect of a game, so you can link your Recount? Did I get everything right? I'm not being mean or anything, it's simply a logical conclusion. What is there to discuss?

And it's even worse underneath. If there is cronoboon, WB will be REQUIRED. Then players will camp places where you get them. Then what, give you immortality?

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Originally Posted by angrylol

why is raid logging an issue?
what do you mean by griefing? Getting dispelled or killed is not griefing.
Why do people spend hours and hours getting WB, if it's not even necessary?
Shouldn't you have the advantage in killing them when having WB?
Having cronoboon or not having it will not impact wpvp, people ho want to do pvp will pvp, who don't - wont.

Give us your data that correlates WB dispelling with activity decline.


Basically what you said is, you want to do big boy dps and show off, but you cant be bothered with efforts and risks it requires. Do they really need to change aspect of a game, so you can link your Recount? Did I get everything right? I'm not being mean or anything, it's simply a logical conclusion. What is there to discuss?

And it's even worse underneath. If there is cronoboon, WB will be REQUIRED. Then players will camp places where you get them. Then what, give you immortality?

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"Why is raid logging an issue?"
- Is this a serious question? If it wasn't a issue why was this addressed in classic wow? Who doesn't want to play their main character whenever they want? Come on.

"What do you mean by griefing? Getting dispelled or killed is not griefing."
- Having a large amount of multiboxers specifically focused on dispelling entire raid groups of buffs that take a very long time and effort to acquire, is by definition, griefing. I suggest re-evaluating your definition on what griefing is. Griefing is the act of intentionally either irritating, inconveniencing, or harassing players thru means that provide no personal gain.

"Why do people spend hours and hours getting WB, if it's not even necessary?"
- WB's not being necessary is not a valid argument. Why are they in the game? People go out of their way to acquire them for various reasons. Some classes scale so well with WB's that its very beneficial to have them. Ever done Naxx 40 without them? If you have, you shouldn't be asking this question. It's no secret this playerbase makes pugging raids a nightmare experience, so of course WBs are very helpful or even arguably necessary for many groups.

"Shouldn't you have the advantage in killing them when having WB?"
- Why does this matter? Not only is the multiboxing difficult to deal with in a version of the game where simply pressing sapper on multiple characters can wipe an entire raid group that has 0 counter play, the griefer doesn't even have to kill you to win, just simply remove your buffs. This is redundant.

"Having chronoboon or not having it will not impact wpvp, people [w]ho want to do pvp will pvp, who don't - wont."
- This statement does not invalidate the benefits of having it added to the game what so ever. It would however improve the quality of wpvp and remove the griefing going on.

"Give us your data that correlates WB dispelling with activity decline."
- I don't have to provide data. You have a working pair of eyes. Look at the online count. Its generally lower than a non-seasonal Lordaeron when it was supposedly peaking at 12000 daily during its release. It went through a sharp decline when people started hitting 60 and raiding, specifically, with WB's. This is not the only reason but it is one of many reasons.


"Basically what you said is, you want to do big boy dps and show off, but you cant be bothered with efforts and risks it requires. Do they really need to change aspect of a game, so you can link your Recount? Did I get everything right? I'm not being mean or anything, it's simply a logical conclusion. What is there to discuss?"
- No, what I am saying is that theres a unintended method of gameplay being abused by griefers and it reduces the quality of the average players gameplay experience. If thats what you got out of my posts then you have a extremely bad case of selective hearing and don't want to pay attention to whats in front of you. Nobody truly cares about flexing DPS in vanilla wow, its so skewed and unbalanced that its a warrior only spectrum you're talking about.

"And it's even worse underneath. If there is cronoboon, WB will be REQUIRED. Then players will camp places where you get them. Then what, give you immortality?"
- If they're so unnecessary like you said, then why would they be required? I can assure you, Naxx 40 will make this the case either way. A majority of the buffs that would be "camped" are in safe zones and instanced inside of DM. Do you even play this game? Songflower and ZG buff would be the largest point of contention, and chronoboon would not incentivize anything to change because players can already camp these buffs if they wished. Instead they choose to congregate outside of instances and spam dispels because wpvp was never the intention, it was the griefing they want. Don't play yourself on this.

I shouldn't have to explain anything beyond this point. If you're content eating the slop that we got, then so be it.

Raid logging is not a problem, especially on high rate server.

Adding things to game because "multiboxing" is not an argument.

Lowering the difficulty of game is not a solution to anything.

Multiboxing again.

What benefits?

That is your opinion, and will not persuade anyone without more.

It is intended, WB do not improve gameplay in a sense that your gameplay if worse if you don't have them. That would be ridiculous and an ACTUAL problem.

Places with traffic will be camped, it does not have to be "at npc" or whatever you imagined I think. That is indisputable truth. And they have dispel in their arsenal. Players can dispel other players buffs. What's your point?

And if there is guaranteed way to get those buffs, they will be REQUIRED.

TL;DR
So cronoboon should be added because AQ pugs will be hard and multiboxers. Got it.

Being forced to log out to save buffs is stupid, I agree. Removing that mechanic would not lower the difficulty of the game in any way, it would just be an objective improvement

Getting insta-killed by 5 mboxer mages when you have buffs is frustrating, I feel you there. But the high you get when you manage to survive/kill them is so high precisely because of the risk incurred if you lose. Can't have highs without lows, and typically the intensity of the loss makes victory all the sweeter. The balance between how frustrating a game should be vs how rewarding will unfortunately vary for everybody. It seems to be very skewed in one direction here, based on the majority of replies.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Basically what you said is, you want to do big boy dps and show off

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That statement is so petty and bad faith, I kinda love it

It's meh, my point with that is, there is a competitive side, it's not a bad thing. But if everyone can just drink the sweet nectar, without putting in the work to squeeze it? It will be just another bland thing that means nothing and every leader requires players to go like robots and get those buffs. As if there are not enough chores already.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Raid logging is not a problem, especially on high rate server.

Adding things to game because "multiboxing" is not an argument.

Lowering the difficulty of game is not a solution to anything.

Multiboxing again.

What benefits?

That is your opinion, and will not persuade anyone without more.

It is intended, WB do not improve gameplay in a sense that your gameplay if worse if you don't have them. That would be ridiculous and an ACTUAL problem.

Places with traffic will be camped, it does not have to be "at npc" or whatever you imagined I think. That is indisputable truth. And they have dispel in their arsenal. Players can dispel other players buffs. What's your point?

And if there is guaranteed way to get those buffs, they will be REQUIRED.

TL;DR
So cronoboon should be added because AQ pugs will be hard and multiboxers. Got it.

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How is raid logging due to world buffs not a problem? Wanna be in mid to high end raiding guild ? Great! But here's the catch - you can't play your main character once you collect your world buffs. Wait what?

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Originally Posted by Warsmash

How is raid logging due to world buffs not a problem? Wanna be in mid to high end raiding guild ? Great! But here's the catch - you can't play your main character once you collect your world buffs. Wait what?

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just buff 1-2 hr before raids

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

It's disappointing and unprofessional that I joined him in his celebration for things happening just the way he loves? Oh my.

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It's disappointing and unprofessional the way you act, it's so obvious he was being sarcastic and you're just dragging it. But hey Obnoxious lives up to his name yet again!

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Originally Posted by AeredonXIV

I did not go back a little further because your claim that "There's no 'you did X, so why not do Y too.' One addition doesn't become justification for another" is redundant and incorrect. We are not talking about ONE specific thing justifying another, we are talking about several changes that was made that go entirely against the intended design of Vanilla WoW justifying one that is good for the game and the community. Why do I have to explain this to you?

"One addition doesn't become justification for another." Says who? You? Secondly, the justification of the proposed addition of a chronoboon was not just because of all the changes Warmane already made, but simply that it is good for the game for a myriad of reasons. The amount of changes already made to the game simply makes any argument predicated upon the fact that something did not exist in the actual game, invalid. That alone should be far more than justified to anyone that has more than two braincells to rub together.

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What are you even talking about? What difference does it makes if it's "one justifying another" or "several"? Do you seriously think this is a numbers game? When we have five changes, you get to pick a sixth extra one for free that we're obligated to implement? I don't know how to say it more plainly that what has already been said, both by Staff and players alike: the decision is fully Warmane's, there are no ifs or buts or conditionals or special clause to it. If the decision is to not add something from Classic, that's it.

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Originally Posted by AeredonXIV

"It's disappointing and unprofessional that I joined him in his celebration for things happening just the way he loves? Oh my." You aren't being clever with this kind of response. You know as well as I do that this persons comment was sarcastic feedback, and the way you responded to them is not you joining in his "celebration". The way you handled that was largely condescending and you knew what you were doing. You are unprofessional.

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Originally Posted by Coax666

It's disappointing and unprofessional the way you act, it's so obvious he was being sarcastic and you're just dragging it. But hey Obnoxious lives up to his name yet again!

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Oh he was being sarcastic, Captain Obvious? Replying sassy with sassy disappoints you? Boo-****ing-hoo. Professionalism isn't bending over to anyone who decides to have an attitude because they are incapable of accepting being told "no."

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

What are you even talking about? What difference does it makes if it's "one justifying another" or "several"? Do you seriously think this is a numbers game? When we have five changes, you get to pick a sixth extra one for free that we're obligated to implement? I don't know how to say it more plainly that what has already been said, both by Staff and players alike: the decision is fully Warmane's, there are no ifs or buts or conditionals or special clause to it. If the decision is to not add something from Classic, that's it.



Oh he was being sarcastic, Captain Obvious? Replying sassy with sassy disappoints you? Boo-****ing-hoo. Professionalism isn't bending over to anyone who decides to have an attitude because they are incapable of accepting being told "no."

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We get it, you don't play the game you happen to be a gm, either that or you're a griefer.
We ALL get this is a Warmane's decission and Warmane's word is the last one. But forums are for discussion, not to lick your boots.
You know very well that gathering a group of no lifers whose intent is to dispel or to gank specific raid groups just for the sake OF DISRUPTING THEIR GAMEPLAY is griefing and is NOT world pvp. You know very well having a toon sitting dead in stormwind is NOT world pvp, you just accept and promote griefing because you, as I can see very clearly, are one of them.

People like to perform very well, that's why they choose to gather world buffs and deal big damage. And adding Chronoboon will help them because they will NOT raid log as they are doing right now. Hell, Classi'c view was NO CHANGES (they even recreated the spell batching!!!!!!) because they wanted to recreate the exact same feeling we had back in 2004. You don't get more purist than that, and guess what? They aknowledged the problem which was raid logging and griefing and created Chronoboon.

You're delusional by thinking you're cattering to purists when they even accepted A CHANGE in classic.

And to end this once for all, you're not adding it and thats your final answer? You're speaking in behalf of Warmane's dev team? Okay, don't add it. But know that forums are for discussions, and you will have disagreements.

If you want cronoboon, you will need to lay it out with proper and logical reasoning. Stating as if it's something obvious on how you feel it's disruption(it's not, according to rules), how raid logging is bad(why?) and players need more DPS(do they?) will not convince anyone. How would you even prove that they do it "just for the sake OF DISRUPTING THEIR GAMEPLAY", even if it was against the rules?
What are the benefits and what are the downsides. There is not a single reason provided for them to even start to think about it. It's just a delusional QQ thread, asking daddy to fix their problems.

You will get dispelled and ganked forever, until you do something. While people here writhe sheets of qq, they could have grouped together and stomped those evil dispellers into dirt until they come here to cry about it.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoforo

We get it, you don't play the game you happen to be a gm, either that or you're a griefer.
We ALL get this is a Warmane's decission and Warmane's word is the last one. But forums are for discussion, not to lick your boots.
You know very well that gathering a group of no lifers whose intent is to dispel or to gank specific raid groups just for the sake OF DISRUPTING THEIR GAMEPLAY is griefing and is NOT world pvp. You know very well having a toon sitting dead in stormwind is NOT world pvp, you just accept and promote griefing because you, as I can see very clearly, are one of them.

People like to perform very well, that's why they choose to gather world buffs and deal big damage. And adding Chronoboon will help them because they will NOT raid log as they are doing right now. Hell, Classi'c view was NO CHANGES (they even recreated the spell batching!!!!!!) because they wanted to recreate the exact same feeling we had back in 2004. You don't get more purist than that, and guess what? They aknowledged the problem which was raid logging and griefing and created Chronoboon.

You're delusional by thinking you're cattering to purists when they even accepted A CHANGE in classic.

And to end this once for all, you're not adding it and thats your final answer? You're speaking in behalf of Warmane's dev team? Okay, don't add it. But know that forums are for discussions, and you will have disagreements.

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I see youre frustraded about getting dispelled. I belive you need to calm down. Accept the fact that dispelling is an intended game mechanic. People have done it and people will continue to do it. Let me give you piece of advice. If you turn PVP off you won't get dispelled in stormwind. Learn the game mechanics then cry on forum. If you have PVP on that means you accept the fact that you can attack other faction and you can be attacked by the other faction. Anyways nowdays i'll be targeting you all above all.
Cheers
-Cactusfruit

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Originally Posted by Riitsu

I see youre frustraded about getting dispelled. I belive you need to calm down. Accept the fact that dispelling is an intended game mechanic. People have done it and people will continue to do it. Let me give you piece of advice. If you turn PVP off you won't get dispelled in stormwind. Learn the game mechanics then cry on forum. If you have PVP on that means you accept the fact that you can attack other faction and you can be attacked by the other faction. Anyways nowdays i'll be targeting you all above all.
Cheers
-Cactusfruit

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I'm not getting dispelled at ALL, I'm voicing a problem which are griefing (accepted, promoted and encouraged by Obnoxious gm) and raid logging. I'm not here to talk about myself and to change the game because I'M the one with a single problem. You think I voice a problem because of MY experience only? I've never been dispelled in my warmane's lifespan. I know it happens, I read forums, I raid with people, I read every day that griefers are moving freely because they are not getting punished at all (because they are allowed and encouraged to do so). Good try though, I would also be laughing if somebody would suggest a change just for their ego and selfishness.

And guess what, I'm offline with my main raider since my toon is raid logging like the past months. So maybe have fun trying to get me when I'm online and in open world lol

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Originally Posted by angrylol

how raid logging is bad(why?)

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I'm more curious as to why you think it's good
Is the reasoning simply that Classic/Retail was that way, so it's good ?

Having to log out to preserve buffs is stupid, just like any mechanic that incentivizes you to stop playing, because the point of a game is to play it, instead of just looking at the login screen waiting.
If the idea is to sacrifice something so you can preserve buffs, then it should be an in-game mechanic (for example : you can't use your hearthstone, you can't regenerate your hp/mana as long as you have buffs etc etc) : something that you can actually play around with and compensate with good/skilled gameplay

But this is more a criticism of Blizzard than Warmane, I'll freely admit. Chronoboon would fix that at least, all the PVP issues non-withstanding

No, in my opinion, things from calssic/retail/whatever are good if I can understand why they are good. But there is certain "threshold", meaning, very smart and well paid people thought about what kind of things to put in vanilla game to make it interesting and amazing. That gives things sort of some kind of "stamp of approval". Meanwhile Classic(Activision) very smart and well paid suits thought very hard how to extract as much money as possible.

Not sure where I said its good or some such, I think it's neither good nor bad, it's something people do freely of their own will. If doing a little more damage is so important that you rather not play whole week, it has nothing to do with "raid logging", that's just a "symptom" of something else. An high exp gives this thing complete irrelevance, since those players play other characters meanwhile.