Wich DK talent spec is best for DPS @BiS gear?

First off frost strike will always hit lower at arp cap than an Obliterate,unless you have BQL bite,cuz you know,double dips are still present(inb4 str dks become utterly sucky).I do NOT play str(this should be HEAVILY noted).As an arp dk you MUST bring out your available Obliterates first and if you can use KM for frost strikes since a crit>noncrit but usually that doesn't happen,usually you'll have time for ~2 frost strieks in a row and after that more obliterates.You can also make it so you hit OB,FS,OB,FS,Blood rune,blood rune(or death ruens respectively),HB,frost strike.Blood runes/death runes should be on cooldown if you intend to use HB,otherwise it won't proc 4pT10 bonus,in fact if it actually worked properly I'd likely remove HB from my spec and get one more point into Blood caked blade.For the RP you're right,in a 25 man raid you'll have all the RP you could ever wish for.So this automatically removes Chill of the grave(rp talant) from your spec.And even if you RP dump,it's not a bad thing,if everything else(FFUU runes and DD/BB runes) are down,you can and well absolutely MUST use your available GCDs to dish out as much damage as possible,whether it's a crit or not in that circumstance is completely irrelevant.

In case someone didn't bother reading what I said at the start,i'll repeat for ARP prioritising OB before a KM proced frost strike is better since OB hits for much more than a frost strike does even with frost strikes having double dips.

FS is NOT your hardest hitter, angry. Unless you're <4k GS, it's Obli. Look at your recount.

Prio is:
1) IT+PS if no diseases
2) KM FS
3) Rime
4) Obli
5) FS if near RP cap
6) BS
7) FS RP dump

KM FS > Obli coz otherwise Rime can "eat" the KM proc. HB is 15 RP, not 20, unless you're running 5/5 KM and 2/2 Chill of the Grave instead of 3/3 Subversion, which I really don't recommend. The 5th TP in KM is unnecessary, Chill of the Grave is a more or less useless talent as you'll be high on RP almost all the time. Subversion is +9% crit on your hardest hitter and -25% threat, which is the only threat reduction for DKs.

Again, I don't see GoD as a DPS increase - why would I use my DDxFxU for Pest + BS > Obli instead of Obli > IT + PS? I just don't see how this can be a DPS gain, and it seems that neither of you, angry and Rikofelt, can see my point. As for alternatives, GoIT is the logical choice. Frost Fever is 5% of your DPS, this glyph gives you a direct 1% DPS boost, more in multi target. GoHB is not an option, because in multi-target you'll have to Pest for Blood Plague anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taralej

Again, I don't see GoD as a DPS increase - why would I use my DDxFxU for Pest + BS > Obli instead of Obli > IT + PS?

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You use the 2 Death runes on an Obliterate, converting them back to blood, which you do use on a BS + Pest.
If you are still confused here is a visual demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAus3WCWhCQ

Hmm I reeeeealy doubt ARP capped is stronger than STR build, that frost strikes are top stuff(you can dish out them way more and use everything else as "RP generator", of coarse some damage is good too) plus ALL damage benefits from STR compared to ARP, scales up from buffs/talents really nicely, where ARP benefits maybe 70% part of total damage.
That is the thing, obliterates are limited, frost strikes are more available. Remember 2pt10 does not give you shown % to obliterate too.

https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker?f...sta&#91;]=2&t=


I did raid with capped ARP few weeks and STR build gave me more damage overall. Maybe that is just the way I play.

Edit:
taralej, it is time to succum to common sense. Of coarse frost strike is not highest damage for you. with you weird it+ps butter I guess your obl is first, then melee, then fs. something like that.
However for me its:
1. Frost Strike - around 27-29% of total damage
2. Obliterate - around 24% of total
3. Melee - 22 %, plus of coarse necrotic strikes around 5%, would make it second I guess.
Depends heavily on encounter, don't forget that. With disease glyph I win on every encounter known to man.
Without it you get one less obliterate each disease refresh and lose 1.5 secs GCD. With that glyph you can do more damage with that bonus obl PLUS one more frost strike as bonus on that 1 GCD.

The reason FS is your #1 is because you're stacking Str... Idk if I should even keep arguing with you, it's useless. Your views on the class and the game in general are completely off.

I tried GoD and I've never seen such a massive drop in DPS, also my diseases fade long before I'm able to Pest every 3rd rune cycle. But I guess it's just expertise & latency issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taralej

I tried GoD and I've never seen such a massive drop in DPS, also my diseases fade long before I'm able to Pest every 3rd rune cycle. But I guess it's just expertise & latency issues.

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You use Pest everytime you are converting your blood runes to death runes. Every 2nd cycle, not 3rd. Always BS->Pest. With 2/2 Epidemic there is no way your diseases drop before you can pest...

taralej I want to ask you, how is your build doing in raids? Can you even compete with other classes, other DKs?
Or you just "craft" theories sitting at dummy and making Sims?
I told you great deal of good information, however its good that you explore for yourself. Just don't go too far, stay objective. I tried your build, tied raiding with it, killed some bosses and I just can't keep up, can't do my part in raids. Plus, its very uncomfortable to play. I don't know man.
Use pestilence as you would use blood strike and use those U+F pair that you would use for IT+PS for Obliterate. Numbers will show, but give it a fair chance, not... meh.. omg whata crap lets go reset talents after 10 seconds at dummy. Kill LK few times, do some ToC runs.

I'm currently outDPSing everything else on my gear by a humongous margin, but I guess that's not due to my disease refreshing but my strict priority instead. I'll stick with GoD for now and see if it holds.

Well since you aim,and currently probably have the spell hit cap,playing with GoD will net you a guaranteed refresh of diseases with only 1 global cooldown.As bensten said,you solely obliterate when you have death runes,then you just BS>pest or if you're gonna lose diseases Pest>BS and repeat,that's it,you don't need to constantly refresh your IT + PS,not to mention that if you do that you may be w/o a KM proc since IT actually uses it up.And the clip abra posted is a good example of what your rotation will look like,the person uses KM procs for FS whenever he can,but if he has no obliterates free,he RP dumps.@ angry have you seen how much an arp Obliterate hits compared to a Frost strike?Having in mind that you will do a ton more obliterates than you will ever do frost strikes,on high end gear arp is the way to go,not strength.

GoD is Glyph of Disease? If properly used, it will net you more obliterates over the course of a fight. Any FDK that gears ARP will obviously want that glyph. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but anyone who decides against using it is just gimping themselves. If you want to gimp yourself, then by all means, have at it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

on high end gear arp is the way to go,not strength.

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That.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rifokelt

@ angry have you seen how much an arp Obliterate hits compared to a Frost strike?Having in mind that you will do a ton more obliterates than you will ever do frost strikes,on high end gear arp is the way to go,not strength.

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how does that work? obliterate hits harder, yes, with STR build too. But Obliterates are limited, one per 2 runes, however Frost Strike only limit is RP. If you are doing more Obliterates over fight than Frost Strikes you are limiting yourself with "rotation" or something. After you AMS something, you pretty much have 4 additional Frost Strikes in pocket. Each time tree gives you that thingy that gives you RP you have 2 more. not to mention self generated RP. All you have to do is use them wisely not "RP dump" which will grant you less damage than you could get.
As I said previously, forcing Blood Strikes to gain that additional Obliterate on death runes is dps loss - use 2 low value hits to gain one highest value, while you can use Frost Strikes instead of Blood Strikes and meanwhile your obliterate is ready on U+F runes. That is more damage is it not? Tailor Frost Strikes in, not "RP dump". Of coarse Obliterate on Death runes is nice increase too, but you shouldn't force it, use it when its profits more damage, not because "rotation".

But I guess we all have our own thing going on and its hard to accept or understand how others play. That applies to myself too.
I agree ARP is really good as secondary stat on DK, but STR is better any time of day.
Edit: Doesn't matter what your Rawr or whatever says.

It doesn't matter what you or whoever else says,with or w/o a priority or rotation an arp build with BiS gear will always beat a str build with BiS gear,it's how the game is and how it will always be.The only reason that str is somewhat strong right now compared to arp is because your frost strikes receives damage bonuses twice(double dips).

single target dps > blood or frost
aoe dps > unholy

it's up to you weither you prefer blood or frost but they have the same dps output. The bis gear for all 3 specs is different though.

I talk about current state on servers, not some "as should be" or "would be".
And about blood dps... maybe... but every blood dps I see is somewhere down there on damage done. Is it because of low skill with blood in general or bugs or whatever.. that's how it is.
And ARP or STR builds for frost, rotation or priority, difference is small and you can do your required % of damage done with each I guess. Tough more small differences together puts pretty nice gap ahead.

Ok, just keep the good tone.

Angry, Riko is right here - ArP *does* beat Str in the end. FDKs are mainly physically oriented, revolving around autos and Oblis, not Frost Strike. As strong as FS is (the strongest RP dump from all 3 specs), in the end it's still an RP dump and not designed to be your main damage, even when taking advantage of KM procs and not letting your RP cap.

The reason FS is so strong is because ToT, as a talent, is pretty absurd - it was released on 3.3 and if you compete with other classes in pre-3.3 gear you will easily crush them all, with FS being your main damage. Post-3.3 gear however shows other numbers and autos and Oblis, as for all ArP-dependent classes, start gaining on FS, then overthrow it and become your main damage. That's just how it is.

What you're doing right now is just taking advantage of FS double-dipping - and there's nothing bad in that, the same way Enhs used 2xWF when it was bugged and had no shared ICD - but once it's fixed you'll have to adjust and switch to ArP. And yeah, I'm slowly getting used to GoDisease now. It strains my rune rotation more than I am used to and not being exp capped hurts me a lot, but I'll get there soon.