10 Man Naxx vs 25 Man Naxx Boss HP

With widely publicized raid strategies, known 3.3.5 optimal raid compositions, 3.3.5 talents, and a server that likely has a much smaller % of casual, lesser-skilled players than Live does, I think it was inevitable that they had to buff the raids. Assuming it's a bit overtuned, here's the key: if the majority of 10 and 25 man raids that are FULLY geared in heroics/reputation gear are still able to clear the entire raid, then there's nothing wrong with it. I think most players would prefer that the raids will require pre-gearing before they're tackled. Someone has already stated that the gear available on the PTR right now is not quite on par with full heroic and rep gear.

If people think it should be beatable shortly after hitting level 70 with random greens and blues then I don't understand what's the point of playing here. Those people are just going to clear the raid a few times, get their gear, and then disappear for weeks until the next raid pops up and rinse/repeat. Then, once they've done the same in ICC, they'll be the first people to quit the server after the Lich King is dead. Honestly, I don't see why they should cater their programming decisions to that type of player. I appreciate that they're trying to make every tier harder/more enjoyable.

it changes nothing, but its not the right step to make the first raid x-times harder than it should be, they should count very carefuly all amounts of changes they came with 3.3.5 patch and adapt it to reach the same difficult like it originaly from blizz, not to buff it only for make naxx content longer - that is a point of my opinion

I'm not arguing my point is right or wrong, it's my opinion as well.

However, consider the alternative to what you're stating: if Naxx is easy enough to be beat after 1 week, and the next raid tier takes 3 months to get to, what's going to happen to the server in the meantime?

Don't you think it would be more beneficial to the overall server's health to make Naxx at least a moderate challenge, make it so that it takes a month or two before it's really on easy farm-mode when your guild group is geared, and then you reduce the deadtime between Naxx and the next raid tier a bit?

Instead, if it's too easy, you end up having people clear it without any effort in a week and disappear for 3 months. It just doesn't seem like a healthy way to do it, regardless of how it was done on Live.

IMO raising their health by 50% on 10 NM and 60% on 25 NM would be quite ok to go with that

I want to stress that the issue as I see it isn't about whether or not to scale. You definitely want to scale boss HP. There's no dispute there.

This topic is about proportionality of 10 and 25-man HP. Blizzard intentionally increased 25-man HP a certain amount compared to 10-man HP for each boss, but those proportions haven't been maintained on the PTR. Here are some tables to show what I mean:

http://i.imgur.com/cO3FOFO.png

So what this table tells us is that on retail Anub'Rekhan in 25-man had 3.03 times as much HP as Anub'Rekhan on 10-man, but on the PTR Anub'Rekhan only has 2.17 times as much HP in 25-man compared to 10-man. This means either the 25-man HP increase is too small or the 10-man HP increase is too great or some combination of both. In my opinion, 25-man HP scaling is too low for some fights, such as Anub'Rekhan, Maexxna, Grobbulus, Razuvious, Noth, and Loatheb.

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Originally Posted by Subdued

Are you stupid or something? His chart says % of retail. His math isn't bad. The problem is that YOUR math apparently ended at 2nd grade. Yes, it's a 100% increase, but it's 200% of the original number, which is what he stated. I love when some ***** comes on here to troll and just makes himself look like a fool. Foot meet mouth. I honestly don't know why he even apologized to you afterward for his choice of column header. I would have told you to go **** yourself.

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Triggering kids like you is something I truly enjoy doing on this forum.

Anyway, as someone stated already, it would really be optimal to increase 10man by 50% and 25man by 60%, compared to retail. Not the other way around. 10 man was made so the raid itself is accessible to a wider audience, meaning it's easier, meaning in the end that in regard to raiding guilds, it serves as a gearing run to run 25man with ilvl200 gear (same ilvl as heroic dungeons, but with more gear combining options and having access to tier set bonuses).

now, we have incresed hp in 10 2 times, maybe 3 times and it give us stupid numbers by scaling it on 25, 40 milion hp in naxx? you are in your bad dreams. if they want to buff naxx they should buff it only with amount coresponding with the diffence between patch 3.x and 3.3.5

Just because you have to wipe a few times and farm gear in order to kill the bosses, you are going to cry on the forums? Get over it or move to DW or Rag.

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Originally Posted by Zohna

now, we have incresed hp in 10 2 times, maybe 3 times and it give us stupid numbers by scaling it on 25, 40 milion hp in naxx? you are in your bad dreams. if they want to buff naxx they should buff it only with amount coresponding with the diffence between patch 3.x and 3.3.5

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there was a vote in the forum if they should make naxx harder
the majority voted for yes

Harder didn´t mean impossible, in this state no1 can kill Loatheb without bug abuse and exploits.

This thread isn't about the difficulty of Naxx overall. It is about the *relative* difficulty of 10-man and 25-man.

An analogy: We're competing in archery. There are two events, the first uses wooden bows and the other uses composite bows (which shoot farther and more accurately). For years we've had the target a mere 5 yards away for the wooden competition and 15 yards away for the composite competition and everyone was hitting bullseye after bullseye, so we all agree we need to make it more difficult by moving the targets back farther. EVERYONE CAN AND DOES AGREE THAT MAKING NAXX HARDER IS A GOOD THING.

The discussion here is about moving the targets back in both competitions so that they remain proportional in difficulty to each other. If the wooden event target was 5 yards away before and we move it to 10 yards, then the composite event should be moved back proportionally. Since the composite bow event was 3x farther away than the wooden with the old numbers, then we should maintain that 3x farther distance and make the composite bow target 10*3 = 30 yards away now.

As you can see in the screenshot of 25vs10 man scaling, it isn't currently proportional to how blizzard had it. If you're sitting here telling people not to complain about Naxx difficulty, then you're in the wrong thread. This is about RELATIVE DIFFICULTY of 25 and 10 man! I can't make that any clearer.

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Originally Posted by Mchaplain

Triggering kids like you is something I truly enjoy doing on this forum.

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So you called his math stupid and then incorrectly attempted to show why it was wrong, when it wasn't, because you were trying to trigger kids?

Ok yeah, sure.

To those arguing about proportion: if Blizzard used equal proportions that does not mean they were correct. Just because the increased HP proportions are consistent between 10-man and 25-man does not mean they both scaled up in difficulty by the same proportion as well. That's not to say that 10-mans, in their current state, may not be overtuned vs. 25-mans. Not saying that at all. However, to state that they would be the same difficulty if the proportion of HP gain of the bosses was the same is incorrect.

To use the previous poster's archery example: You're not accounting for things other than distance as being factors which affect the difficulty. What if, for every 5 feet beyond 30 feet, the person is losing accuracy due to a decrease in sight, increased wind resistance and the like?

There were massive bans on Molten on Deathwing and Ragnaros in past due to some pros were bugging LOD's :v

Hope it wont happen here too :p

P.S. its not for warmane scripts, but for some pro hardcore gamers who were involved in those bug exploits :p

End of the story : Guys, staff clearly said. We are here for giving out our opinions. As a businessman's view, Kaer is not a new guy aound, He knows what he and his team is doing and he wont make wrong choices which will tend for any funny incidents on lordaeron as its his dream realm. So there is no point in 'pew pew' or 'qew qew' and fighting with each-other like chickens. just give your views, state them clearly and let the staff read them. There are always "Internet Trolls' who will just keep trolling any post for filling some fun in their life, so dont be offended about them. You have an 'ignore' option on forums too.

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Originally Posted by Zohna

it changes nothing, but its not the right step to make the first raid x-times harder than it should be, they should count very carefuly all amounts of changes they came with 3.3.5 patch and adapt it to reach the same difficult like it originaly from blizz, not to buff it only for make naxx content longer - that is a point of my opinion

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And its this way ? Do you realize that good players was making around 2.5-3.5k dps on retail when naxx was live?. Here "good" player on ptr can make 5-7k dps, you do like 4k dps with eye's closed. And we dont even got profesion items, enchants for casters, items for emblems etc. Its normal things they buffed bosses that way because we are playing on 3.3.5a dude.

Plus like others said, Ulduar is like half year ahead, you wanna gear up on easy naxx in max 2 months, and then what ? afk in Dala or moke alts ?. Not everyone one wanna play this way. Read title "HARDCORE realms" if you dont like, go play on another realms or server, its really really simple.

You wanna change whole realm philosophy because you wanna gear faster ?. Its really simple, you dont like dont play. Nobody is forcing you to play here.

Pugs wont do **** on this realm for long time and i like it, and to be honest you dont really be in some hardocre guild to make whole naxx. All you need for naxx 10 is 25-30k dps in whole raid, so like 4+k per dps, two good healers and tanks, and you are ready to go.

Naxx 25 is even easier then 10, because you wont need that good dps for it, just stop dying on mechanics.

OS +2, +3 is a diffrent story, same for eye. But you know its good this that people wont make is fast.

If you cant do 4+k dps , cant heal or tank, this realms is simple not for you.