Why RDF Being Disabled on Lordaeron is a GOOD Thing

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

You say the Staff keeps repeating that this is how we want it, yet people keep acting like we asked, want or are open to feedback over this. Isn't it understandable that Staff are upset when people can't take the hint?

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I know it is a figure of speech, but being honest here, it is not a hint. Calling it that is letting them off easy.

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Originally Posted by Jakkre

Well, then make a pool and let ppl vote.
Do u really think the majority would vote for keeping rdf disabled?

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It doesn't matter what the majority would vote for. It is not going to change. It was stated before the realm was even launched that this is how it was going to be, and that it was not up for any sort of vote.

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Originally Posted by Jakkre

The question is much rather how u want to treat ur playerbase and how open u are for feedbacks of the playerbase.
The blatant majority asks for rdf and the only answer of the staff is that its a design feature of lordaeron, wont be changed and who doesnt like it can play somewhere else.
Isnt it understandable that many players are upset when getting such a answer?

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We are open to feedback for a lot of things. Feedback is one thing. Begging, cursing, ranting, insulting, etc. over and over and over and over again is not feedback. Especially when we have made it very clear since before the realm was even launched that this is how things were going to be, and that it was not going to change because of any feedback. For what reason does someone have to understandably be upset that we are sticking to our guns on this? We will stand our ground on this. Everyone has their opinion. You may not like this, others may not like it, but those are opinions -- ones we do not share.

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Originally Posted by Jakkre

Yet I havent read a reasonable argument why rdf is disabled
Saying that its a design feature of lordaeron is no argument.
Thats like saying: Its disabled because its disabled and we want it to be disabled.
Really great argumentation...

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And for what reason should we need to argue it? Pray tell. The only reason for which to argue it is because you want it to change. You want things to be your way, and you have this belief that we haven't taken the time to "argue" it (because, let's be honest, do we really need to?), that makes our design plans for the realm invalid. I'm sorry to break it to you, but this is not how things work around here.

I'll humor you, though.
Our reason for this design choice is because we feel the change Dungeon Finder brought to the game started a cascade. A cascade of events that changed the game from what it once was, to the facebook game "click and get your loot" it has become today in Warlords. It is a HARDCORE realm. That is our reason. Enabling Dungeon Finder so players can sit in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, Dalaran, wherever and queue into easy experience or loot via dungeons they likely have never actually have seen the entrance to is a problem for us. A big one. World of Warcraft's initial design was a world to be explored. The mystery of the unknown brought some sort of excitement. Now there is no unknown. The game is data-mined from the PTR servers Blizzard hosts before it is even launched. You can literally sit and click in the game to get your gear, gold, profession materials, etc.

The game used to be one of community and discovery. Now it is neither. The Dungeon Finder is the very first implementation of "accessibility" features in the game that advocated the "click, join, kill stuff, leave -- no communication at all whatsoever -- who cares if I ninja everything" mentality that is now in the game. The game's community is important to its longevity; more important than any other factor in the game, and the Dungeon Finder only serves to take away from that.

Is whispering someone from global or LFG (actually communicating here!), running to a dungeon and/or accepting a summon from other players in the group too difficult for you? It shouldn't be. It might take a little bit of extra time, but the game should encourage you to go out and do things to get what you want, instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

Or are you concerned about the end-dungeon rewards from heroics? Less Emblems of Frost (note: Dungeon Finder added in patch 3.3, i.e. ICC)? I'm sorry to break it to you, but the community that is used to raiding on Ragnaros & Deathwing in ICC or ToC is already in for a rude awakening in how difficult their emblems will be to get when Normal and Heroic start sharing raid locks like they should.
The realm is labeled as HARDCORE for a reason. It is not meant to be easy. If you can't handle it, I suggest you play on a different realm or server, whichever best suits you.

How is(will be) bonus emblem system?
Can we get highest tier emblems by completing heroic dungeon right now? Will that be implemented?

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Originally Posted by Mercy

Is whispering someone from global or LFG (actually communicating here!), running to a dungeon and/or accepting a summon from other players in the group too difficult for you? It shouldn't be. It might take a little bit of extra time, but the game should encourage you to go out and do things to get what you want, instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

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This is why a lot of us really really really want a GROUPING tool. No teleports, no bonus xp/loot, no emblems, nothing else apart from forming a group.

In a perfect world, that would happen.
In the real world, you either:
a) Get an addon that simulates RDF (CallToArms)
b) Spam global every 5 seconds, interrupting you from questing/socializing/doing anything else but spamming global. The "socializing" comes down to "inv <role>" or "inv <class>", then "hello, summ pls" or "who go summ" or "no summ? k find other tank *leave*".

It's really annoying having to click up and enter every 5 seconds for sometimes 15-20 minutes (even more for lower level dungeons nowadays). I've really really wished that with Lordaeron I'd do every single dungeon available but it's just so hard to find groups (and I play a tank and my alt is a healer)... People just can't be arsed to go unless summoned, and most of the times I'm the only one going to summon.

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Originally Posted by Jakkre

After all I think ur arguments against RDF are lacking in substance

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My statements are not against RDF, they are positive outcomes seen with it being disabled, mainly players earning progression instead of it being augmented by RDF rewards.

The two reason I gave for groups getting disbanded ("it's boring" or "too long") have nothing/little to do with bugs, what it does have to do with are players wanting the easiest dungeons so they can get rewards faster.

With RDF it's harder for players to "police" the members of the group, with forming groups of strangers the same way people make/update forum topics with information or post to global about "such and such did this or that", etc. the same can be done with negative/potentially negative players only this time it has more punch since the non-discriminating RDF is not enabled (and has been done in the past, "ninja looter" topics). If players don't seek information on players that is upon them but at least the information can be available.

Ever been kicked from an RDF group because your GS was too low? The tank and or healer barking orders and or acting like they alone run the show and you don't do exactly what they want? At least now players can interact with their potential group mates beforehand (ask the tank/healer are they bossy, etc.). More power is given to the players.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

I'll humor you, though.
Our reason for this design choice is because we feel the change Dungeon Finder brought to the game started a cascade. A cascade of events that changed the game from what it once was, to the facebook game "click and get your loot" it has become today in Warlords. It is a HARDCORE realm. That is our reason. Enabling Dungeon Finder so players can sit in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, Dalaran, wherever and queue into easy experience or loot via dungeons they likely have never actually have seen the entrance to is a problem for us. A big one. World of Warcraft's initial design was a world to be explored. The mystery of the unknown brought some sort of excitement. Now there is no unknown. The game is data-mined from the PTR servers Blizzard hosts before it is even launched. You can literally sit and click in the game to get your gear, gold, profession materials, etc.

The game used to be one of community and discovery. Now it is neither. The Dungeon Finder is the very first implementation of "accessibility" features in the game that advocated the "click, join, kill stuff, leave -- no communication at all whatsoever -- who cares if I ninja everything" mentality that is now in the game. The game's community is important to its longevity; more important than any other factor in the game, and the Dungeon Finder only serves to take away from that.

Is whispering someone from global or LFG (actually communicating here!), running to a dungeon and/or accepting a summon from other players in the group too difficult for you? It shouldn't be. It might take a little bit of extra time, but the game should encourage you to go out and do things to get what you want, instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

Or are you concerned about the end-dungeon rewards from heroics? Less Emblems of Frost (note: Dungeon Finder added in patch 3.3, i.e. ICC)? I'm sorry to break it to you, but the community that is used to raiding on Ragnaros & Deathwing in ICC or ToC is already in for a rude awakening in how difficult their emblems will be to get when Normal and Heroic start sharing raid locks like they should.
The realm is labeled as HARDCORE for a reason. It is not meant to be easy. If you can't handle it, I suggest you play on a different realm or server, whichever best suits you.

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Thanks for the detailed answer.
I can understand where the idea to disable rdf is coming from. When Lordaeron was released I think it really socialised the dungeon grps to have rdf disabled and travel together to the dungeons. At least thats what I experienced on the lower level when the realm was fresh.
Nevertheless at some point things changed. Ppl started to leave the party with out a single word, the elitists started to bash the noobs and now it doesnt feel more social like a rdf party anymore.
Now the general chat is pretty much the replacment for the rdf tool and it has the same anonymity.
For me the positive effects of having rdf disabled were just temporary and while leveling up it slowly turned from a positive to a negative experience.

It's a simple thing.
Do you like RDF?
If you like it,then queue.
If you don't like it ,you can travel to the summon stone.
i love democracy

If you don't like it ,you can travel to the summon stone.

Noone would do that, even those who say that they hate RDF - they would use it anyway. I've seen that happen on another server.

instead of just clicking a couple buttons to get where and what you want.

can u summ?
no
k, bye
/leave

can u summ?
y
<click accpet summon>

To me this whole thing still only looks good on paper. Altho it's good to read some detailed arguments from the staff, other than "no, cuz no" :D

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Originally Posted by darvadoor2

It's a simple thing.
Do you like RDF?
If you like it,then queue.
If you don't like it ,you can travel to the summon stone.
i love democracy

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Some people hate driving, doesn't mean they are going to walk to work instead of drive.

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Originally Posted by Radvo

This is why a lot of us really really really want a GROUPING tool. No teleports, no bonus xp/loot, no emblems, nothing else apart from forming a group.

In a perfect world, that would happen.
In the real world, you either:
a) Get an addon that simulates RDF (CallToArms)
b) Spam global every 5 seconds, interrupting you from questing/socializing/doing anything else but spamming global. The "socializing" comes down to "inv <role>" or "inv <class>", then "hello, summ pls" or "who go summ" or "no summ? k find other tank *leave*".

It's really annoying having to click up and enter every 5 seconds for sometimes 15-20 minutes (even more for lower level dungeons nowadays). I've really really wished that with Lordaeron I'd do every single dungeon available but it's just so hard to find groups (and I play a tank and my alt is a healer)... People just can't be arsed to go unless summoned, and most of the times I'm the only one going to summon.

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Yes, it would be best to handle it via an addon. For those that are reading this and do work with addons, I'd say it might be easier to make an extension of this interface;

Spoiler: Show

http://i.imgur.com/NRvHhwE.png

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Originally Posted by Radvo

This is why a lot of us really really really want a GROUPING tool. No teleports, no bonus xp/loot, no emblems, nothing else apart from forming a group.

In a perfect world, that would happen.
In the real world, you either:
a) Get an addon that simulates RDF (CallToArms)
b) Spam global every 5 seconds, interrupting you from questing/socializing/doing anything else but spamming global. The "socializing" comes down to "inv <role>" or "inv <class>", then "hello, summ pls" or "who go summ" or "no summ? k find other tank *leave*".

It's really annoying having to click up and enter every 5 seconds for sometimes 15-20 minutes (even more for lower level dungeons nowadays). I've really really wished that with Lordaeron I'd do every single dungeon available but it's just so hard to find groups (and I play a tank and my alt is a healer)... People just can't be arsed to go unless summoned, and most of the times I'm the only one going to summon.

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I absolutely agree with Radvo. Well i would maybe prefer good ol RDF tool, cause i don't really enjoy traveling alone to every dungeon, but some kind of a group finder is like the only REAL thing missing on this server, since the true problem is global chat from which many people got cancer, and i'ts only getting worse.

I can not understand why staff thinks that grouping up manually is more social, more communicative. As a lot of people before already mentioned, the real communication looks like this: /global LFM <insert role> <insert dungeon> <insert gear / level requirements> and answer you got is <invite, role/level>. If staff thinks this kind of communication is smth awesome, idk what to think about you.
Second thing is exploration. I simply can not see what so amazing is about watching an entrance to dungeon? Vintage summon stones? Badass door like portals? Ganking lowbies, so they can not summon their group, which might lead to discarding group at all.
I see more problems with RDF disabled. People would be so much happier if RDF would be enabled.
I think there is something more to it. My guess is that RDF is actually not working on Lordaeron core or it have major bugs and doesnt fit into all working Lordaeron style theme, idk...

RDF wont be enabled, lordaeron cant handle it with 10k+ players im pretty sure. It is a great wotlk feature though

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Originally Posted by featurex

RDF wont be enabled, lordaeron cant handle it with 10k+ players im pretty sure. It is a great wotlk feature though

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They said the same about pathfinding. Months passed,and everything is ok. Some people got used to play with broken stuff and can't even imagine that things can be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Feralbeard

I think there is something more to it. My guess is that RDF is actually not working on Lordaeron core or it have major bugs and doesnt fit into all working Lordaeron style theme, idk...

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Originally Posted by featurex

RDF wont be enabled, lordaeron cant handle it with 10k+ players im pretty sure. It is a great wotlk feature though

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What sense does any of that even makes? We decided there would be no RDF in the server even before it opened, much less when we got to a player cap of 10.000. Seriously, get it through your skulls: the fact you disagree with our vision for the server or the reasons we want it the way it is doesn't means there's some conspiracy theory behind it; people will say no to what you want in life and they aren't necessarily doing it because they are being mind controlled by the martian Amish Illuminati; when the decision is up to other people they might simply say no because that's what they want, and trying to dig for "hidden motives," instead of simply accepting that your point of view isn't the most important thing for everyone else, is deluding yourself in a spoiled way.

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global chat from which many people got cancer, and i'ts only getting worse.

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Ah, the ****ing /global, on peak hours it's full of "ur mama is so fat" jokes and at night muricans start their nevereding dabate about religion and politics...
Don't like it? Go ahead and create your own LFG chat channel that noone will ever use.

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Turning off RDF until 3.3.0 content might be explained because it wasn't introduced until then,but if we will never get RDF or RHC, then there is a major problem.

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Ayy, maybe good ol DW and Rag will see a pop increase next year. Too bad that they're not really a good alternative with their gear/gold inflation and toxic community.

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lordaeron cant handle it with 10k+ players im pretty sure.

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What about WIntergrasp then? If it will be anabled then it means that the server can handle it ;p