[Guide] Marksmanship PvP

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Originally Posted by Multisnipe

As for gouges, it is enough time to go restealth (5.5 seconds).

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That kind of explains it- improved gouge is on the first rank of the combat tree in wotlk, it's way further down in Cata so sub rogues didn't take it. A quick inspection of duelers on Warmane showed that some sub rogues take it and some don't on WOTLK.

I also found this video saying that improved gouge didn't allow restealths on retail but that it does on private servers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRt4vpaiacY

I'll probably test it out in battlegrounds and stuff- if I see rogues getting restealths on me with gouges on my pet then I'll take a hard look at trinketing blind, assuming I even have it after deciding to eat a full kidney.

Yes, it is true that can't restealth after 5.5 seconds even with perfect MS. It's in between 5.5 - 6 seconds though, which is such a tiny window :'(. The rogue just has to gouge your pet and run a short distance away. Unless they gouge your pet extremely late during your blind, they can easily get a restealth.

You can trinket kidneys in battleground only if you have Deterrence or intervene to attempt to dodge blind. Don't trinket blind unless you know you can catch them xD

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Originally Posted by Multisnipe

Yes, it is true that can't restealth after 5.5 seconds even with perfect MS. It's in between 5.5 - 6 seconds though, which is such a tiny window :'(. The rogue just has to gouge your pet and run a short distance away. Unless they gouge your pet extremely late during your blind, they can easily get a restealth.

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I guess maybe if you have a ravager with bullheaded you could foil the rogue's plan regardless. I had specced roar of recovery on mine, but after thinking of this scenario I may go bullheaded like you recommend. Corned is nice as well for keeping your pet alive.

Honestly, rogues being so hard on mm hunters it the biggest drawback of the spec for me compared to my Cata BM. On my 85 hunter, it doesn't matter if they catch me completely by surprise, I just bestial wrath the cheap shot, intimidate, drop a flare and all of a sudden he's the one stuck in a very bad position.

It stinks thinking that if I learn the strats perfectly, I will still lose 80% of the time to good rogues as an 80 MM.

Rets don't sound much better- you say dispelling sacred shield is crucial, but that's spammable by the ret, right? So if he makes a power aura telling him to reapply sacred shield when it falls off (which I would do) then you're out of luck I guess. Plus, one cleanse gets rid of both hunter's mark and serpent sting- frustrating spec to face as a hunter.

Well, I only lose to a handful of rogues like this. The other ones are very easy to manage because they get really confused when you don't trinket until very late. So if it makes you feel better, I'd say an accurate win rate against the average Rogue would be about 70-100%, depending on how you consistently survive them through shadow dance/blinds and restealth.

Even with bullheaded, they could just pop Vanish, since they have two of them :'(. The bad ones will be confused though.

Rets are easier to deal with than rogues, even with Sacred Shield. If you keep up enough distance, they'll never touch you unless they rush you with Hand of freedom. This is why you silence to cover up Serpent; to unload all that you have in that 2-3 second window where sacred shield is down. Of course, you don't have to always do this when sacred is down, they'll still take SOME damage, just not as much. It's like a 3k absorb every 6 seconds, so if you do have the dps to go through this (which you will with enough crit and AP and rapid fire). After freedom goes down, you'll be able to slow them for about 15 seconds which you can free dps. Unless they bubble, you won't have such a hard time as you will with rogues.
An accurate win % would be about 50/50 to a REALLY good Retribution paladin. The average ones you will be able to score at least 75% easily. Just be sure not to piss them off or they will pop bubble + free action potions and reroll nitros boots and ask for chain heals from shamans during duels. (full scumbag mode xD)

You don't mark them other than during freezing traps. Snake trap will help a lot since you'll have many poisons up on them and they wont be able to dispel it as easily. You'll force a consecration or divine storm, but it's fine even if you score 2-3 different poisons on them. My best suggestion to you is to readiness early before they get the chance to use divine protection. They'll end up at lower HP when you force it, in which you just have to kite for 12 more seconds before you can finish them off.

I seem to be doing something wrong then, I guess, I lost 90% of my duels vs decent rets.

Repentance to close distance (trinketting is stupid)
HoJ -> hunter trinkets (unless you want to lose all your health, I guess you could RoS and hope for the best)
If you're lucky with insane crits or outgear him, you MIGHT force bubble after disengage (then again, he has freedom, instant FoL, sacred shield, armor, dispels)
He heals to full, while you're at like 10k health
You die in 2nd HoJ

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Originally Posted by Xypher

I seem to be doing something wrong then, I guess, I lost 90% of my duels vs decent rets.

Repentance to close distance (trinketting is stupid)
HoJ -> hunter trinkets (unless you want to lose all your health, I guess you could RoS and hope for the best)
If you're lucky with insane crits or outgear him, you MIGHT force bubble after disengage (then again, he has freedom, instant FoL, sacred shield, armor, dispels)
He heals to full, while you're at like 10k health
You die in 2nd HoJ

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The really discouraging thing is how easy it is for them to do it. I know, I have a ret alt I play until I start to feel guilty for doing so (usually doesn't take long). :) It's a class that you can basically make power auras play for you by having it track a lot of buffs and debuffs - managing those is the main part of being a ret.

I really think Cata is a superior pvp expansion to WOTLK- they toned down a lot of the faceroll specs in that xpac, before handing out a lot of OP goodies in MoP and unbalancing and dumbing down the game.

Yes, it is true rets can do all these things, which is why it is so crucial to maintain as much range as you can. They are about 7% faster than you and if they JoJ you, that's 15%. It's safe to assume they'll judgement you instantly at the start of the duel (when you go for scatter trap), so i always intervene this to eat some of the damage. I always expect them to trinket the trap, in which by then I'll be 20+ yds away. The bad rets freedom the trap and it's an instant loss for them
The key is to deterrence the repentance as soon as they get in range. If you're putting up enough pressure, you easily force it. Crab pin covered with silence works very well to keep them away in the opener. Be sure to bring it back quickly though as they can heal off it. You may also use a ravager for the stun. So a flawless opener should look like this:

Feign death>intervene>ret judgement (maybe if theyre fast)>scatter shot> freezing arrow>tranquilizing shot + anticipate a trinket. If trinket, go straight to serpent +silence into a chimera shot into an aimed with rapid fire. Don't disengage until they've used repentance but maintain that 20 yd range as much as you can. They'll probably freedom to try catch you which is GOOD. The earlier freedom is used the easier kiting will be later. Make sure you pop deterrence and lay snake traps as soon as they reach 21 yds. Chances are they'll be spamming it and you'll deflect it. Only then can you disengage. Now they're quite screwed but they dont have anything to catch you with and you'll force some cleanse spamming and defensives, which is fine. You can choose to readiness here to try force a bubble or divine protection, in which you can also simply reset them with a scatter shot trap >tranquilizing shot.

If they eat the full first trap, which they should, it will come up quite shortly after youve unloaded your burst, in which you can just scorpid sting (if they havnt dispelled it) and scatter trap again and get even more range. If this happens then they are quite screwed because they have no choice but to chase you again. And making up 40 yds without freedom is really difficult if the hunter keeps unloading burst.

1400 resil rets don't hit very hard, so you can probably eat the first hoj unless they wings. It's a good thing if they wings though, they have no defensives for 30 seconds other than divine sacrifice and hand of salvation (if glyphed). Rets who hoj wings on openers means you'll need to kill them in 30 seconds, which is plenty of time if you have nice crit chains.

Even if you have no luck getting sacred shield, remember the key is to mainain as much range as possible and reset often with scatter traps. Expect them to trinket any time though. Even anticipate them trinketed a scatter shot. Which is fine. Just do as i said above (serpent sting+silence>chimera>aimed to nuke at decent range). Deterrence repentance and snake trap when they get close and you should be fine. Survive as much as possible until the next scatter trap, and you'll easily finish them off. Think of it like a mage polymorphing a ret to get max range and unload burst. Your traps don't reset their health!

If you do manage to take sacred shield away, watch their health plummet three times as fast.

So the general tactic is to squeeze in every ounce of damage whilst you have your range before they get to you. Try not to disengage before repentance or you'll be screwed when they catch you. Deterrence as soon as they come within range of repentance and try to outlast freedom. Once freedom is down its quite easy to kite them if they have no repentance available.

On cata, the tactic is similar because the hunter needs to clean the ret of their buffs since tranquilizing shot is spammable there. Cover the first slow with silencing shot and unload damage and expect a repentance into a hoj.

On another side note: make sure you have close to 9% hit rating because if you miss a scatter you're probably rip :'(

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Originally Posted by Multisnipe

It's safe to assume they'll judgement you instantly at the start of the duel (when you go for scatter trap), so i always intervene this to eat some of the damage.

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LOL, you play this class at a whole different level than most of us. Real interesting to read all these intricate strats you've worked out for facing each spec. I also enjoy the game of knowing and trying to predict your opponent's moves, but nothing like you've done. How long have you been playing WOTLK hunter to work all these strats out?

Intervene implies you're using a crab against rets - I would have thought ravagers much better since their stun is one of the only ways you can get distance on them during freedom. Plus, I assume rets can just cleanse the crab pin- it is magical IIRC (which seems really dumb- a crab pinches you with his claw- must be magic!)

I have good luck against rets in Cata- it's basically a free win in a 1v1 in bgs or world pvp. A bit tougher in duels when you can't max range kite and have to face those dumb tentacles that proc from the legendary weapons that every ret and warrior seems to have, but still very doable.

The fact that bubble lasts 12 seconds in WOTLK is another thing about rets that seems borderline trollish. 8 second bubble in Cata is a bit annoying, but 12 is just kind of ridiculous.

This will be my 5th year on WOTLK Hunter. It helps if you play the other classes too. I have every class, with every spec BiS. It really helps understand all their mechanics and bringing that knowledge to try new things on Hunter, so that I could improve on playing against them. Generally the classes I find that deal Hunters well are my Sub Rogue, Retribution Paladin, Unholy Death Knight and of course my own Hunter. I might pull a few wins as Protection Warrior if I can reset Stun DR's with a full fear.

I find the Crab very useful against Rets because of that intervene. That judgement of Justice can really mess you up because they'll catch up to you quicker 7% movement speed is alot. Once they stick to you, there's nothing you can do really but blow a disengage which will get you in all sorts of trouble if you do it too early. Yes, they can cleanse the Pin, which is why I cover it up in the beginning of the duel with a Silencing Shot. It buys me more time overall. Easily forces a freedom in the opener too, since you get that extra 1 second of burst on them. Crab is also more tankier than Ravager (for some rets that Repentance you and Wings your Pet). It won't ever die with Last Stand and Cower.

I would use Aspect of the Cheetah in Deterrence but it's buggy as hell (get divine stormed, auto attacked, etc during Deterrence).

Yeah, that bubble is annoying xD Take that time to get more distance if they stand there and heal. If they don't they're dead when they come out of it anyway.

I don't really understand why you emphasize the sacred shield dispelling that much, because it just doesn't really work or do anything from my experience. Every ret will spam cleanse on himself, instant FoL and instantly sacred shield (after it gets dispelled). It doesn't have a cooldown - so you can't really make a tactic around that. Whichever buff you dispel, they will just reapply instantly, they have 2-4 buffs at all time. Yes, you can silence them, but that's only for 3 seconds, after that it's back up. On top of that, most rets go for Stoicism, which reduces the chance of their helpful spells (aka buffs) being dispelled by 30%, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't see how it's even possible to win vs a ret if they use bubble (which they should, because it's the best option, like always). The only times I've won is when they wings in the opener and I kill them before they can use bubble, but that's not because I played well, that's because they played very poorly.

Yes, it is quite RNG based whether you hit the sacred or not. All their buffs are spammable indeed but it doesn't mean you shouldn't dispel them anyway. If you do hit the sacred, I watch their health plummet so hard becauss they didnt absorb 2500- 3000 damage on your burst. Think of it this way. Every time you burst with sacred up, expect it to eat 2500-3000 damage. Over time this adds up to quite a lot. However even if you miss all dispels it doesn't mean you've completely lost. You can still string a huge chain of crits when you've broken sacred shield and if you reset often, it won't add up to as much since you are always getting that max range every 30 seconds or so.

Playing as disc hunter in 2v2, I am sure that you agree that dispelling sacred shield is one of the most important jobs for the priest since the hunter cant pressure without it. Try to think of it in the same way
Dispelling anything will help you:
Kings = less spellpower and damage/health
Righteous fury = removes their 6% less damage taken - take more damage obviously
Freedom = very nice to slow them agaim
Sacred shield = watch health plummet when you hit them naked.
Sacred shield proc = shield down (slightly worse then getting big sacred but better than nothing)

With full scatter traps, you'll be able to get two tranquilizing shots off if they don't trinket.

With glyph of disengage and spec, you can easily disengage often when repentance is down. I usually do this in between freedoms to force it.

There is no point to face a Retribution Paladin with a yolo tactic because we all know how Rets stick to Hunters so easily when they finally catch you.

I may have forgotten to mention this, but you can eat the first HoJ if the Ret has low damage (because of 1400 resilience - no dps trinkets) only if they don't wings. You must wear at least 1400 for this, but its not ideal since you won't be able to kite long enough since they eventually catch you.

If you like, we can do some duels on Ragnaros or Blackrock where you or me play as Retribution vs. Hunter. The duel range is insane on Blackrock however rets are way more tanky. On Ragnaros and Deathwing it seems that all classes do an absurd amount of damage compared to Blackrock. PvE pieces really carry.

Rets dont get art of war procs if you roar of sac the moment you know you'll take damage. They might divine storm snakes or hit the pet, however that doesn't occur very often if you pull the pet back.

Yes, the bubble could mean that you have to kill them twice because they reset, but it still isn't impossible. Deterrence against repentance and hoj are my highest priorities since it is bugged as hell where the ret doesn't even have to be good and abuses this by just simply divine storms and auto attacks you in deterrence :'(. Its hard to replicate with consistency (deterrence bug) but I'm sure you agree that you have been hit by all sorts of things that shouldn't.

When and where do you duel Multi-snipe? I'd like to watch sometimes to pick up some tips. Though I suspect you have a time hard getting people to accept duels. :)

It's nice to hear you do so well with 500ish ping- are you from Australia?

Ty this helped allot

Yes, I am from Australia xD
It's about 350ms on nice days and 450-600 on bad days in Dalaran.

Duels aren't too hard to get, however most people start declining after a string of losses. I'll put up my level 70 bow (From Sunwell Plateau, so amazing), and this doesn't really help since some people want a fair fight, however I'm just looking for a challenge.

I duel on Ragnaros but I'm always up for duels on Blackrock if anyone asks. Tbh Blackrock is a bit more balanced in terms of resilience because I don't feel like my damage is as high as it is on Ragnaros. I'd say it's about 85% though, which is still quite close. I don't get from 100% to 0 from rogues there either, and shadowmeld mechanics are amazing there! So nice to meld a Blind or cheap shot/kidney :) (Happens once in a while but very rewarding when it does).

On scatter trapping rets, I always thought of rets as being one of the few specs where it was useful to just drop a freezing trap and hide behind it. They can't cloak the trap or shadowstep behind you, they can't reflect it, and freedom doesn't work with freezing traps. I've found it useful to keep freezing trap around for rets as a "oh crap" button if you don't have any better options. I can see scatter trapping being a good option if you're in a bg or world pvp and can max-range kite him, but in duels I'm just not able to get away from rets like that and I like having a freezing trap as a defensive tool against them.

Is this not a good tactic in WOTLK?