BiS weapons for fury non-donor?

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Originally Posted by Panofsky

A proper use of the Rend ability will increase your dps by 1k, not so much but still useful, especially when you are still gearing up and you haven't got the t10 bonus, so you have got even more room for stance dancing when Bloodsurge doesn't proc. As a warrior fury you definetly don't need the extra hit given by Glyph of Cleaving. No one cares about the dps done on trash mobs and as a fury warrior you already have a good aoe dps thanks to Whirlwind. Valks? On 25 hc it's even easier to get them down since you don't need to kill them but only to reach half of their hp.

You are assuming that you can replace Shadowmourne with Warmace of Menethil just because you want to replace a weapon with arp + crit as secondary stats with another weapon with the same stats but inferior. Which is wrong, it's not a matter of filling your rage bar, it's about the stats and the base damage. Your off hand weapon affect a part of your Whirlwind damage, which is basically the ability which deals more damage per hit in our rotation. That's why you should aim for Glorenzelg + Cryptmaker or the double Glorenzelg (if you are not human) combo.

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This is EXACTLY reason why u shouldnt come on forums for information, and why i hate the curent state of it. I got every bit of information i could posibly get from my head and u still cant see anything exept ur own ego.
If u get unlucky with melee hits u WILL LOSE dps and ragestarve, ESPCIALY on LOW GEAR if u stance dance. And not to mention u can CAST SLAM and gain DPS on warmane at the BT > 1gcd > 1sec part of rotation since it doesnt reset ur melee hits. Valks are easier on 25m hc since they only need to reach half of their hp? when is the last time u got to LK 25m hc and actualy did it mate?
I never said u can REPLACE Shadowmourne with Warmace, NOTHING replaces Shadowmourne, but Cryptmaker is replacable by Warmace, yes. And Warmace is arround 2.3% crit which is HUGE diference, while 13.7dps on offhand is **** compared to that... Sorry to burst ur bubble, but u should get some facts straight before randomly posting something u think its legit cos these players have NO CLUE on how to play.
But yea, as Mercy said herself: "This discussion has become more about who is right than being helpful to the thread creator." so i wont be posting anything else anymore since u are just dense. I did what i could to help new warriors as much as i can from 1 comment, i rest my case.

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Originally Posted by Panofsky

Are you kidding me? Unbridled Wrath is one of the most useless talent in the fury tree. It only gives you the chance to get ONE additional rage point trough your damaging abilities. Furious Attacks is a pvp talent (just tell me why you should reduce the healing recieved in pve, I can't even...). Improved Berserker Rage may be useful when you start gearing but with some decent gear from TOC 25 you will already have enough rage to spend just by following your basic rotation. Improved Execute is a crappy talent because you will use Execute maybe few times when the boss health is lower then 25% but only to fill your rotation. Glyph of Execution is not worthy. The best glyphs for a fury warrior are Glyph of Whirlwind, Heroic Strike and Rending. Stop spreading false informations, please.

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As I said,it falls to personal preferences,and Execute's worth is higher when you gear up,lower in higher gear.True,Rend glyph overcomes Execute easily IF you can stance dance properly,which is true to probably ~2-5% of warmane's fury warriors,most of the time you lose dps if you can't do it properly,same with paladins seal change mid-fight.Furious Attacks is a filler talent,we mainly used it in ToGC.Considering your talent,Enrage is the most useless dps wise,as it actually reduces your damage output if it procs during DW or Hysteria since it removes them.And if you read carefully,I never said anything about Glyph of Execute the best glyph,if one has the skill to stance-dance,then GoR is the best,however if you can't,GoE is better then a glyph you won't benefit from,with talents to reduce the cost.Heck,if you're on sunder duty(no prot warrior),even sunder glyph can boost your dps,though i don't recommend it cause it doubles sunder's aggro too.Since he clearly stated f2p setup,its better to actually give some info regarding that,not the version where you are a full donored skillcapped player.

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Originally Posted by Gnimo92ud

This is EXACTLY reason why u shouldnt come on forums for information, and why i hate the curent state of it. I got every bit of information i could posibly get from my head and u still cant see anything exept ur own ego.
If u get unlucky with melee hits u WILL LOSE dps and ragestarve, ESPCIALY on LOW GEAR if u stance dance. And not to mention u can CAST SLAM and gain DPS on warmane at the BT > 1gcd > 1sec part of rotation since it doesnt reset ur melee hits. Valks are easier on 25m hc since they only need to reach half of their hp? when is the last time u got to LK 25m hc and actualy did it mate?
I never said u can REPLACE Shadowmourne with Warmace, NOTHING replaces Shadowmourne, but Cryptmaker is replacable by Warmace, yes. And Warmace is arround 2.3% crit which is HUGE diference, while 13.7dps on offhand is **** compared to that... Sorry to burst ur bubble, but u should get some facts straight before randomly posting something u think its legit cos these players have NO CLUE on how to play.
But yea, as Mercy said herself: "This discussion has become more about who is right than being helpful to the thread creator." so i wont be posting anything else anymore since u are just dense. I did what i could to help new warriors as much as i can from 1 comment, i rest my case.

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It's not a matter of ego. Have you ever played a fury warrior without being bis geared or with a gear which is lower than 232 ilvl before saying that rending is a loss of dps at low gear? Have you ever tried the fury spec on a progression realm where you start with some crappy naxxramass gear? I don't use to play my warrior considering the warmane bugs so I'm sorry if I haven't considered the possibility to cast Slam. The thing about rending it's exactly what you said, you have to be careful with your white swings, that's why you get the proper addons in order to check them?

Stop pretending that you are gaining more crit equipping Warmace of menethil because you will still lose it to fill the lack of hit rating. When Chardev.org was still running I've tried all the weapons/gear combinations and the Warmace of menethil was still a loss of dps.

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Originally Posted by Panofsky

Stop pretending that you are gaining more crit equipping Warmace of menethil because you will still lose it to fill the lack of hit rating. When Chardev.org was still running I've tried all the weapons/gear combinations and the Warmace of menethil was still a loss of dps.

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Not to talk that you're chasing a crit value that will only raise your damage based on a RNG value and people are also forgetting that bosses themselves downgrade your crit chance. Swapping flat damage for a crit value doesn't seem like a good idea to me unless you're a RNG god.

Crit suppression is a flat 4.8%. Unless you want to tell me that you won`t even hit 4.8% crit, this is entirely irrelevant, by any means.

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Originally Posted by Selaya

Crit suppression is a flat 4.8%. Unless you want to tell me that you won`t even hit 4.8% crit, this is entirely irrelevant, by any means.

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In the same way that you want to swap a flat weapon damage by a crit value that will be pressured and crunched by a RNG Value that you need to be lucky with. The crit trade-off will be irrelevant at that point since most likely you'll be properly geared (at least to acquire the mace in a legit way you'll have to) and the gear by himself should give you a decent ammount of crit value by itself. The trade-off doesn't seem really good if you look closely to the gear stats combined.

Difference between gloren + cryptmaker hc and gloren + warmace setups (including rest of the gear and talents) is SMALLER than ONE GEM in favor of crypt. So it comes down to personal preference imho. One big advantage of warmace setup is that warmace provides the same itemization as mourne so if you are going to get it in the future you don't have to regem.

http://imgur.com/a/VYulB
I took the items that are mostly seen in almost every "fury bis item list" on the internet and ingame (Warmane - Icecrown realm).
Gloves: Aldriana's. Wrist: Toskk's, Cloak: Vereesa's, Ring: Ashen Strength ring.

4 pictures:
1st: Warmace, fully gemmed, enchanted, BS + JC
2nd: Cryptmaker, fully gemmed, enchanted, BS + JC
3rd: Warmace, no gems, no enchants
4th: Cryptmaker, no gems, no enchants

Armor penetration for both gear setups (fully gemmed and enchanted) is exactly on 1401 raiting.

Conclusion:
If u go Warmace instead of Cryptmaker u lose 114 atk power and u gain 2.51% crit.
If u go Cryptmaker instead of Warmace u lose 2.51% crit and u gain 114 atk power.

Fully raid buffed:
If u go Warmace instead of Cryptmaker u lose 132 atk power and u gain 2.51% crit.
If u go Cryptmaker instead of Warmace u lose 2.51% crit and u gain 132 atk power.
Warmace: u are on 60.96% crit +3% (Heart of the Crusader) -4.8% (boss supresion) u are on total of: 59.16% crit.
Cryptmaker: u are on 58.45% crit +3% (Heart of the Crusader) -4.8% (boss supresion) u are on total of: 56.65% crit.

U want to reach the soft crit cap (which is arround 60% crit chance), meaning all ur white hits will be critical strikes, or glancing, or miss. There wont be any normal hits. U want this. U need this. Its not a matter of RNG. I tryed droping crit for more strength (aka atk power), it doesnt work.

All of u have enough of stats with this comment so decide on w/e u want to go for.

Can anybody confirm the 4.8% on warmane? The existence of crit suppression is a myth that got busted in the EJ forums back in Feb, 2010. It still was implemented in some of the wandering cores on the net.

Spoiler: Show

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...=1#post7273930
https://web.archive.org/web/20100208...5/#post1535396
https://web.archive.org/web/20100207...dated_2_3_10_a

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Originally Posted by jendah

Difference between gloren + cryptmaker hc and gloren + warmace setups (including rest of the gear and talents) is SMALLER than ONE GEM in favor of crypt. So it comes down to personal preference imho. One big advantage of warmace setup is that warmace provides the same itemization as mourne so if you are going to get it in the future you don't have to regem.

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Aye, objectively speaking, Cryptmaker is superior (by a very small margin). Someone who wishes to invest can do so based on preference. However, for someone that is gearing up and has no intention of going the Shadowmourne route, I'm of the opinion that Cryptmaker would benefit the player more. Not just for the reason you stated, but having that hit rating and armor pen on the weapon gives greater 'breathing room' for the player in question.

The way I see it, those that are trying to argue that Warmace is [objectively] better than Cryptmaker are those that are arguing just for the sake of proving the other person wrong, and it doesn't benefit the thread poster at all. If that's their opinion, that's great - but it's not reasonable to state that opinion A > opinion B, because by the subjective nature of opinions, that's just not how things work.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

Can anybody confirm the 4.8% on warmane? The existence of crit suppression is a myth that got busted in the EJ forums back in Feb, 2010. It still was implemented in some of the wandering cores on the net.

Spoiler: Show

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...=1#post7273930
https://web.archive.org/web/20100208...5/#post1535396
https://web.archive.org/web/20100207...dated_2_3_10_a

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I was thinking this as well, but it can be possible on here, as it is not retail and bugs happen. So if someone [who has "crit cap"] is willing to parse to check data on this, that'd be great.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

The way I see it, those that are trying to argue that Warmane is [objectively] better than Cryptmaker are those that are arguing just for the sake of proving the other person wrong, and it doesn't benefit the thread poster at all. If that's their opinion, that's great - but it's not reasonable to state that opinion A > opinion B, because by the subjective nature of opinions, that's just not how things work.

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Are u joking me? Did u even read what i wrote? I am the ONLY one that even posted actual numbers and comparison in Warmace VS Cryptmaker while all u do is bash the ppl that are not thinking the same way u do... I even posted... Meh, no use... Good job my friend.

@Bensten, from my expirience as feral, when i have less than 79.8% crit sometimes i do normal hit the target, especialy without "Heart of the Crusader" (+3% crit) debuff, that is higher lvl than me. So its higely posible that this works here, or its just my bad RNG striking again, idk how much is the exact number but i think it might be working. I chose feral cos its easiest to test on since i get to the 79.8% crit only when my idol is stacked on 5/5.
For more info, if interested, wowwiki: Critical Strike and Defence Rating.

If you never intend to grab a SMourne, you would want a double Gloren setup - more bang for the buck.

I did a quick test with my warrior earlier.

Hit: 170 (5.18%)
Exp: 31/26
Crit: 56.91% (I did take off DBW to have a constant crit value)

If I'm not mistaken and assuming the 4.8% value doesn't exist, my crit cap should be: 100 - 24 (Glancing) - 18.82 (Miss) - 0 (Dodge) = 57.18%.
So actually I was below the crit cap. This is what my table looked like after 3000 hits on a heroic dummy.

http://i.imgur.com/Yi1UMLs.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gnimo92ud

Are u joking me? Did u even read what i wrote? I am the ONLY one that even posted actual numbers and comparison in Warmace VS Cryptmaker while all u do is bash the ppl that are not thinking the same way u do... I even posted... Meh, no use... Good job my friend.

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I wasn't talking to or about you though. I'm sorry if you felt targeted or insulted. Yes, you posted numbers. I disagree that crit is the be-all, end-all. But I'm content with agreeing to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

I did a quick test with my warrior earlier.

Hit: 170 (5.18%)
Exp: 31/26
Crit: 56.91% (I did take off DBW to have a constant crit value)

If I'm not mistaken and assuming the 4.8% value doesn't exist, my crit cap should be: 100 - 24 (Glancing) - 18.82 (Miss) - 0 (Dodge) = 57.18%.
So actually I was below the crit cap. This is what my table looked like after 3000 hits on a heroic dummy.

http://i.imgur.com/Yi1UMLs.jpg

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Thank you, very much.

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Originally Posted by Bensten

Can anybody confirm the 4.8% on warmane? The existence of crit suppression is a myth that got busted in the EJ forums back in Feb, 2010. It still was implemented in some of the wandering cores on the net.

Spoiler: Show

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...=1#post7273930
https://web.archive.org/web/20100208...5/#post1535396
https://web.archive.org/web/20100207...dated_2_3_10_a

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Technically speaking it's not a myth.

Mobs above your level force a crit depression on you where your crit is actually lower then what the character sheet says (remember its showing for even level mobs). Also I would like to remind that EJ busted the myth with the patch 3.3 and not with the patch 3.3.5a if I'm not mistaken. I'm trying to look deeper into this and the formula that I've faced multiple times facts this;

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100% - 24% glancing chance (not reducable) - miss chance (reduced by hit rating, increased by dual-wielding) - dodge chance (reduced by expertise) + 3% boss crit suppression = crit cap. This applies to white hits only though.

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It's actually set to 4.8% (as researched by Vulajin), but can be rounded to 5% for this simple example. It just means that 5% of the time, you simply won't crit. However I've just took a look at your tests and I'm going to keep those numbers in mind. Thank you.