Look how they massacred my boy

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

No, I had seen that. I expected you to have something, let's say, better. With some "density" to it. I simply don't consider some conjecturing (potentially self-serving) about how a group of players - which I'm not sure you're part of, but for sure can say you aren't a representative of - feel about there being a planned update to implement official post-nerf values.

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Nerfing the raid mid-tier, whether planned or unplanned, interferes with the current progression of all guilds that are progressing the raid. This is just a fact. I'm just articulating my opinion that this has the potential to alienate those players, based on the sources of information available to me: personal experience on Onyxia and previous Frostmourne servers, the experience of players in my guild and other players that I speak with, and reading this forum thread and similar where players are unhappy about the way Sunwell nerfs were implemented. It's not a huge leap to make that players on a progression-focused server would rather their progression was not interfered with. Not really sure what an argument with some "density" in it is supposed to look like.

I'm not trying to play for one team or the other here, I genuinely think that the Sunwell nerfs were poorly implemented and think it would be to the detriment of the server as a whole if it became a pattern in wotlk. If there are players out there think the nerfs were implemented well and are very happy that they can now complete the content then I would definitely take that into account, but it definitely seems to be the opposite side that is more vocal.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Naturally there might be a niche group that was on the cusp of progressing and who might feel disappointed that the update came before they managed to. But, as the label says, it's a niche situation, not this huge faceless mass you try to make it out to be. Plus, as callous as it might sound, we have to think of the server overall, the actual majority whose numbers we can see and who aren't on the path to beating it.

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While it's not possible to know how every guild on the server feels about the nerfs, we can definitely determine how many guilds' progression was impacted by the nerfs. It was every guild on the server that entered Sunwell, but didn't kill Kil'jaeden pre-nerf. That's every guild except two, which is definitely could not be considered a niche or minority of players. I just think the devs should be very careful about taking actions that impact a group of players that large without having an idea on what those players would prefer - all I can realistically do to aid that is to give my opinion here.

And while yes, players could always compensate for nerfs by handicapping themselves, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of players would prefer if the devs would just give them an experience they desire instead of having to create their own.

You have to understand that the decision to nerf it was made because only 2 guilds cleared the content 2 weeks after the release. We wont stubbornly cling to harder content when it was clearly too hard and this was a binary decision (either pre or post nerf).
I would have loved it if we had what ICC has and increases player power by 5% every week

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Originally Posted by penrypooch

While it's not possible to know how every guild on the server feels about the nerfs, we can definitely determine how many guilds' progression was impacted by the nerfs. It was every guild on the server that entered Sunwell, but didn't kill Kil'jaeden pre-nerf. That's every guild except two, which is definitely could not be considered a niche or minority of players. I just think the devs should be very careful about taking actions that impact a group of players that large without having an idea on what those players would prefer - all I can realistically do to aid that is to give my opinion here.

And while yes, players could always compensate for nerfs by handicapping themselves, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of players would prefer if the devs would just give them an experience they desire instead of having to create their own.

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I mean, sure... if you're up to going that far into ridiculously dishonest and disingenuous arguments, you can of course ignore all the people who don't care about the change and all the people who liked it and now being able to complete that content, and try to fool someone by bundling them all together as the previously mentioned faceless mass. You do you, as they say.

PS: About the "more vocal" part, I'll just refer you to my previous question on whether you are sure you want to use this thread and its complaining posts as a gauging device.

Why so many people on the forum are complaining over nerf is insane. You cant even give any good argument over "WE JUST GOT OUR PROGRESSSION DISRUPTED".

No, your progression wasn't disrupted, all of you had quite a lot of time to finish SWP prenerf and kill KJ and be among the theses 2 guilds that fully cleared SWP.
You simply just wanted to keep some more ID resets so you could farm first bosses like Kalcegos to get a bit of better gear so you can deal with harder bosses like Muru by replacing your lack of skill and preparation with better gear.
You are simply mad because you believe Warmane team just took away your Chance to join the "Cool guys" like you believe you were destined to join the "Cool guys" and believed that all you needed is just few more pieces from kalcegos and brutalus and you could deal with harder bosses.


But what about people who just want to do content without just treating WOW as second job? Administration did a right thing to NERF SWP so more casual players could have chance to experience content with less sweat. Of course you still need to be decently geared and you need to follow tactics to finish the raid but thats how it should be. Not some Ultra sweat minmaxx grindfest bull**** like entire raid having LW and gnomish battle chicken or permabenching protection warriors because they dont do threat as efficently as bear druids.

The nerf was needed and maybe it could be delayed 1-2 id's but remember onyxia on classic experienced a mass people resigning since release of BWL because people were too frustrated with dificulty especially with third boss where every wipe meant also repeating that annoying gauntlet and people spent hours being stuck to the point that many left, so devs simply wanted to avoid similar situation with SWP when they realized that SWP was done by only 2 best guilds..


Also not to mention, Onyxia wasn't meant to be some hardmode hardcore servers, it was meant to let people just have some experience from vanilla through tbc up to wotlk. If you are unhappy with that then Onyxia is not server for you and shoul should find some hardmode server with boosted raids.

You seem to be conflating my opinion that I don't think the Sunwell release and subsequent nerf was implemented well with me somehow complaining that the raid was too hard for me or that i'm saying didn't need to be nerfed or something. I haven't once complained about the nerf itself or complained cause I wanted some more time to prog pre-nerf etc - I am in wotlk waiting room and not even playing Sunwell. I've never said it shouldn't have been nerfed, obviously they were forced to do so since the wider pop was having so much trouble with it.

All I've been saying is I don't think the approach of "release hard, then nerf" is a particularly good one and giving my opinion as to why. The number of guilds who were mid-prog when the nerf was implemented was the vast majority of guilds on the server and it is a fact that the nerf was an impact on their natural progression. I don't think this is a good thing to have happen. People can agree or disagree with that.

If nerfs are required to be made then earlier I suggested a series of smaller ICC-type incremental nerfs over the course of weeks rather than a large nerf, which Nobuemon said above would have been preferable for them as well. Seems like for whatever reason it wasn't possible this time around, but maybe in wotlk we could see something like that happen.

I don't think it is a hot take that most players would prefer if the raids were released in a manageable state for the wider server pop (able to be progged over time and eventually cleared with practice and gear) and didn't need to be nerfed mid-tier.

Ya the 5% buff would solve all your issues. Players would progress the content the same way they did in Vanilla and TBC. You might get that one hardcore gamer dude that makes a complaint post after expansion launch like we did previously, but that's it. Then we hit the final stage and then the nerf is already built into the game. Another reason why Wrath was the best expansion, because it integrated variation in difficulty.

If people want the SWP progression experience they can go play on blizzard servers. This server was very transparent about it being the nerfed state. Complaining about it being nerfed is like going to a fish market and complaining the fish you bought smells like fish. Them giving 2 weeks of non nerfed was honestly a surprise. IDK about horde side, but alliance side pop is running kind of thin on new recruits that are actually geared enough to run sunwell on the prenerf state. Them bringing the HP pools down to the nerfed state makes it a lot easier to bring people in that aren't full bt/hyjal geared.

My guild and I were happy with the sense of progressing at start

We are also happy with the nerfs cause some of our less dedicated players were on the verge to quit

Thank you staff team, sending love