Why everybody doesn't like protection warriors?

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January 21, 2018
DamnOriginal

Going back to the topic of warriors being squishiest tanks, I was looking for ways to remedy that somewhat and came up with this spec. Trading aggro and mobility for 4% stamina is pretty good on a plate class with the highest base hp in the game and stamina in the ranged slot, especially since mobility is useless on most encounters and aggro is only as important as your raid makes it. Reduces the EH gap between warriors and other tanks by quite a bit. You're still just an inferior paladin but at least you're not the paladin's waterboy.
January 22, 2018
yyccyybb

bcoz i saw ton of ****** war tank in ICC pug.
easy die at gsb,fest, then RO
once i saw a war tank wipe us, i will sure alt f4.
January 22, 2018
KomodoV01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Going back to the topic of warriors being squishiest tanks, I was looking for ways to remedy that somewhat and came up with this spec. Trading aggro and mobility for 4% stamina is pretty good on a plate class with the highest base hp in the game and stamina in the ranged slot, especially since mobility is useless on most encounters and aggro is only as important as your raid makes it. Reduces the EH gap between warriors and other tanks by quite a bit. You're still just an inferior paladin but at least you're not the paladin's waterboy.

sacrificing critical block, devastate, safeguard, shockwave and warbringer for 4% stamina, 4 expertise and a fluctuating uptime of trauma on valuable targets does to me seem rather unintuitive. then again, I havent done any calculations on the matter.
January 22, 2018
DamnOriginal

Quote:

Originally Posted by KomodoV01

sacrificing critical block, devastate, safeguard, shockwave and warbringer for 4% stamina, 4 expertise and a fluctuating uptime of trauma on valuable targets does to me seem rather unintuitive. then again, I havent done any calculations on the matter.

It is. It's very unintuitive to sacrifice deep protection talents to offspec into arms but due to design flaws in the protection tree, the spec I listed has more effective health than a deep protection spec which theoretically makes arms/prot warriors better main tanks survivability-wise than deep prot warriors.

The problem stems from the fact that all deep protection talents are either just complete trash (Critical Block), replaceable by already existing skills (Devastate), pure aggro (Sword and Board, Damage Shield) or just extremely situational with very little use on most relevant encounters (Warbringer, Safeguard, Shockwave). Once you get Vitality, you've pretty much hit the capstone to your survivability. These terrible talents solidify the warrior's role as offtank because they can't compete with other tanks who actually have proper tanking talents that give them more survivability. Naturally, the only way to make warriors less terrible as main tanks is to spec them in such a way where they don't give up any effective health talents in the protection tree (I.e stop at Vitality) and at the same time reach effective health in another tree, which is exactly what that spec does. You give up some aggro and situational talents and get something that actually makes you better at taking hits consistently.

The only consideration here is aggro but I have no reason to believe that a warrior can't manage keeping aggro with all of his main aggro abilities (Heroic Strike, Shield Slam, Revenge) completely intact and now also being buffed by 15% extra arp.
January 23, 2018
AluschI

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

It is. It's very unintuitive to sacrifice deep protection talents to offspec into arms but due to design flaws in the protection tree, the spec I listed has more effective health than a deep protection spec which theoretically makes arms/prot warriors better main tanks survivability-wise than deep prot warriors.

4% stam is nothing. Aiming for 4% more stam as a critical value and sacrificing is like saying that a boss is only tank able in bis gear. You can calculate as much as you want, it never gets real. No tank dies by missing 4% stam, they die by 20%-40% over death. 4% stam is nothing more than a good feeling that never saves your a*ss.

Calling Critical Block trash completly shows your lack of understanding real tanking not only useless calculation. shield block is ready at most high dmg situation, a save block crit or non crit grants you more dmg reduction than 4% more stam.

A block with shield block up is a save dmg reduction of 12,5-25% of a 40k hit. At the point where you have the gear to tank a boss, i will always choose a save min. 12,5% on a 1 min cd, that i can choose freely over 4% stam that only let my healers feels saver.

Yes a block does nothing to magic dmg, but here reality beats calculation again. High dmg spikes are mostly a combination of magic and physical dmg. Geared tanks dont die because of a high dmg spike but from the next swing that comes right after a dmg spike. shield block reduces less at the typical dmg spike, but even more at the next deadly swing.
January 23, 2018
Gnimo

I think this is the best tanking spec u can get for end game main and offtanking:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#LVZ...ibcdsho:Trdmoz
This will provide u and ur raid with best set of survival skills, buffs and debuffs warrior can bring.
I dont know how much threat u will be able to generate, but thats why warrior is not so desirable i guess...
January 23, 2018
DamnOriginal

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

4% stam is nothing. Aiming for 4% more stam as a critical value and sacrificing is like saying that a boss is only tank able in bis gear. You can calculate as much as you want, it never gets real. No tank dies by missing 4% stam, they die by 20%-40% over death. 4% stam is nothing more than a good feeling that never saves your a*ss.

Barely one sentence in and you're already completely wrong as usual. 4% stamina is amazing with ICC buff and if any other tank could get it without sacrificing EH, they would. You kept screeching that WotN wasn't good because "u die to second hit anyway" and "ur shud never drop to 35% " showing that you have no idea of what you're talking about and now you're repeating the same mistakes. In your little, challenged mind all fights are just static white swings on the tank who can only take a set number of hits and any survivability above the bare minimum is somehow wasted because "they die by 20%-40% over death". You don't account for heals that don't bring you to full or residual healing or how boss mechanics can completely change the dynamic of the maximum damage the tank can take and how much time your healers have. You just flat out don't understand the concept of EH, which is pretty impressive considering the entirety of ICC tanking is built around it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Calling Critical Block trash completly shows your lack of understanding real tanking not only useless calculation. shield block is ready at most high dmg situation, a save block crit or non crit grants you more dmg reduction than 4% more stam.

A block with shield block up is a save dmg reduction of 12,5-25% of a 40k hit. At the point where you have the gear to tank a boss, i will always choose a save min. 12,5% on a 1 min cd, that i can choose freely over 4% stam that only let my healers feels saver.

How bad do you have to be to write something this stupid? RNG 20% chance to have a 60% chance at blocking 2k is better than 4% constant stamina because it offers more RNG mitigation over the fight? You know what else offers more RNG mitigation? Avoidance. This must be why we see so many avoidance tanks in ICC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Yes a block does nothing to magic dmg, but here reality beats calculation again. High dmg spikes are mostly a combination of magic and physical dmg. Geared tanks dont die because of a high dmg spike but from the next swing that comes right after a dmg spike. shield block reduces less at the typical dmg spike, but even more at the next deadly swing.

You know what helps your survivability against both magic and physical at the same time? Stamina. Wow

If I were you, I'd refrain from staining this thread with further misinformation. Only thing you're doing is confusing people new to tanking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnimo

I think this is the best tanking spec u can get for end game main and offtanking:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#LVZ...ibcdsho:Trdmoz
This will provide u and ur raid with best set of survival skills, buffs and debuffs warrior can bring.
I dont know how much threat u will be able to generate, but thats why warrior is not so desirable i guess...

I definitely recommend this over the default arms dip as it has more EH, better raid buff and aggro shouldn't be a problem at end game. Still wont ever main tank anything tho, especially with safeguard in there.
January 23, 2018
AluschI

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

You just flat out don't understand the concept of EH, which is pretty impressive considering the entirety of ICC tanking is built around it.

Try tanking for yourself and you might understand the different of pure EHP theorie and real mitigation. But i highly doupt you can do this

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

How bad do you have to be to write something this stupid? RNG 20% chance to have a 60% chance at blocking 2k is better than 4% constant stamina because it offers more RNG mitigation over the fight? You know what else offers more RNG mitigation? Avoidance. This must be why we see so many avoidance tanks in ICC.

Get your facts right. A non crit block is easily up to 5k, not 2k. Block can be 100% if needed blocking 12,5% min at someone hitting as hard as LK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

You know what helps your survivability against both magic and physical at the same time? Stamina. Wow

Stamina that every tank got enough of, as for icc 30% to much. If you die because you are missing 4% stam and need to miss more importand talents, you might get some skills or not braindead healers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

If I were you, I'd refrain from staining this thread with further misinformation. Only thing you're doing is confusing people new to tanking.

You are the one calling critical block trash. warrior is build around the ability to to block at will and push block value by a amount that no other class can, and you simply call this key talent trash? Thats what i call missinformation. You dont even know the basics about warrior tank and try to discuss here...

Play a warrior through icc and see what that class is able to block, your stupid 2k block just shows that you never played that class...

You ***** about some overheal DS from DK, but simply ignore 100% blocks that can value 5k - 15k. So closemindet
January 23, 2018
DamnOriginal

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Try tanking for yourself and you might understand the different of pure EHP theorie and real mitigation. But i highly doupt you can do this

What does this even mean? It's just more nonsensical screeching. If you consider 2 layers of RNG 'real mitigation" then that's probably the fault of whatever degenerative mental disease you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Get your facts right. A non crit block is easily up to 5k, not 2k. Block can be 100% if needed blocking 12,5% min at someone hitting as hard as LK.

I can't tell if you think you have 100% Shield Block uptime or you just don't understand numbers. An average block in ICC for a warrior is 2k-2.5k, which means the most common amount Critical Block will mitigate is an additional 2k-2.5k. During Shield Block is when you can get 5k regular block value, which is a 30 sec cd and even during that it's still only 60% to proc 5k more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Stamina that every tank got enough of, as for icc 30% to much. If you die because you are missing 4% stam and need to miss more importand talents, you might get some skills or not braindead healers.

Oh, so there's a stamina cap where getting more stamina suddenly becomes less valuable? That must be why bears are such unpopular tanks in heroic raiding and 30 stamina gems aren't religiously socketed into everything. Good to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

You are the one calling critical block trash. warrior is build around the ability to to block at will and push block value by a amount that no other class can, and you simply call this key talent trash? Thats what i call missinformation. You dont even know the basics about warrior tank and try to discuss here...

Play a warrior through icc and see what that class is able to block, your stupid 2k block just shows that you never played that class...

You ***** about some overheal DS from DK, but simply ignore 100% blocks that can value 5k - 15k. So closemindet

Jesus Christ, I was joking about the mental disease before but now I think I may have been onto something there.

Learn to separate Shield Block from Critical Block first. Then realize that Shield Block has a 30 sec cd and without Shield Block, Critical Block is nothing. This means that for every 10 secs where Critical Block does something, there's 30 secs where it is complete trash and even during those 10 secs where it can be useful it still has 40% chance to do nothing. Do you follow? It is absolute hot RNG garbage that forces you to use a cd in order to try and make it slightly less RNG and even then it still doesn't work almost half the time. In an environment where tanks value consistency above all else, RNG talents like these have no place. If Death Strike was worthless on its own and could only get value with Vampiric Blood and still have 40% chance to do nothing even with Vampiric Blood, it would be a 45 sec downtime, inconsistent pile of trash like what Critical Block is but that is not the case.

If warriors had any kind of EH talent in place of Critical Block, they would be more comparable to other tanks but they don't because they have Critical Block instead. In a way, it's directly responsible for warriors finding themselves at the bottom of the tanking chain because other tanks get consistent tanking talents from their specs.

Just stop typing and salvage what microscopic pieces of your credibility remain after that comment about Vigilance on protection paladins.
January 23, 2018
Eva

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

100% blocks that can value 5k - 15k. So closemindet

Can you post your warrior tank's armory page?

I'd like to see how you geared towards getting these values. Since the maximum I ever seen was 9.3k on a BiS tank in a video, with all procs active. How could you possibly exceed this?
January 24, 2018
DarkenedHue

Quote:

Originally Posted by AluschI

Try tanking for yourself and you might understand the different of pure EHP theorie and real mitigation. But i highly doupt you can do this

You've bloviated throughout the thread about being this guy with extensive practical experience who's tanked a lot and drawn useful lessons from the course of his tanking career, but a number of things you've said have already given away that that isn't true. You've had perfectly coherent and cogent explanations laid out before you that explained at great length the premise of EH and its value yet you seem as stubbornly skeptical of its value now as you were on page 1 of the thread. Most people in this thread arguing against your dismissal of EH aren't some isolated enclave of private server-based contrarians who are just trying to be different. "EH theory", as you put it, was a thoroughly discussed and widely accepted subject particularly around the time 3.3 was live. You've adopted a position that stands wildly at odds with established principles and aren't doing a good job defending your position. A lot of this stuff is honestly just plain intuitive to any experienced and sensible tank. It instantly clicks in the mind of a tank who's progressing on heroic LK that he needs to maximize his EHP under those circumstances. That you haven't arrived at the same conclusion speaks to your lack of firsthand experience in high-end raiding, and your inability to apply deductive reasoning correctly to the matter. I think these are what best explain why there's such a disconnect between you and everyone else on this subject.

I regret the condescending undertone but you're defending a fundamentally untenable position here by downplaying something as highly regarded as EH, and you're seemingly impervious to any efforts at reasoning with you otherwise.

To be clear I'm not advocating for the spec without Shockwave and Critical Block. I'm just emphasizing that your criticisms of EH don't hold any water. As for the design around Critical Blocking, while it's certainly a majorly flawed concept, it still isn't exactly worthless. Just unreliable. You also significantly neuter the potency of one of your cooldowns, Shield Block. So it's certainly not without substantial trade-offs. Though of course it does maximize EH and would theoretically be more useful against bosses that were spell-damage heavy, but even in these encounters it's probably a bit of a stretch to think it wouldn't be hampered enough by the reduced mobility and threat that you might favour a more standard spec anyway. All in all it's certainly an imaginative effort to make up for one of the Prot Warrior's most restrictive design flaws but there probably aren't that many encounters where it would in practice be better than a more conventional Prot spec.
January 24, 2018
DamnOriginal

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

To be clear I'm not advocating for the spec without Shockwave and Critical Block. I'm just emphasizing that your criticisms of EH don't hold any water. As for the design around Critical Blocking, while it's certainly a majorly flawed concept, it still isn't exactly worthless. Just unreliable. You also significantly neuter the potency of one of your cooldowns, Shield Block. So it's certainly not without substantial trade-offs. Though of course it does maximize EH and would theoretically be more useful against bosses that were spell-damage heavy, but even in these encounters it's probably a bit of a stretch to think it wouldn't be hampered enough by the reduced mobility and threat that you might favour a more standard spec anyway. All in all it's certainly an imaginative effort to make up for one of the Prot Warrior's most restrictive design flaws but there probably aren't that many encounters where it would in practice be better than a more conventional Prot spec.

It's a main tank spec. Your mobility and Shockwave only see use on 4 ICC bosses as MT, which means there's 8 bosses where you lose nothing but aggro and some bad RNG mitigation and gain consistent EH instead. Pretty good tradeoff for a geared MT looking to invest some of that threat overkill into survivability. Gnimo's spec is another way of doing that but it has a lower EH potential in an optimal setting and its main boost to EH doesn't work on spell damage.
January 24, 2018
Mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eva

Can you post your warrior tank's armory page?

I'd like to see how you geared towards getting these values. Since the maximum I ever seen was 9.3k on a BiS tank in a video, with all procs active. How could you possibly exceed this?

There are plenty of block value items in the game. Them not being labeled as ""BIS"" doesn't mean they don't exist.
Of course, that doesn't mean gearing for such values is advisable.
January 24, 2018
MannDavison

Ghostcrawler Blue Posts "Future of Prot Warriors"

Quote:

You're viewing things through the lens of LK raiding, where getting hit twice in a row without heals landing can kill you. In that environment, the only things that matter are mechanics that can get you to reliably survive two hits in a row. When healer mana matters more, then anything that reduces damage -- even if it has a random component and even if it doesn't reduce damage enough to keep you alive sans healing -- becomes more valuable

Quote:

Critical Block isn't designed to save your life on the last boss hit though. It's designed to let you take less damage (and therefore healing and therefore mana) over the course of a fight. If the boss fight lasted for only 6 hits and you never got a crit block, then yeah, you got unlucky. Fights aren't that short though (unless you're using the healers who refuse to heal from the text above). Over the course of a typical 6-8 minute boss fight, critical block will proc around as often as you would expect it to (since the number of boss hits has a decent sample size), saving as much mana as you would expect it to.

Quote:

You're trying to compare Critical Block to Ardent Defender here, which of course will leave the former wanting. Your response to being on death's door should not be to hope for a crit block. You should use Last Stand or Shield Wall, which are 100% under your control. Crit block, like dodge and parry, are generally there to make healing on you require less mana.

Quote:

Critical Block and block in general (and dodge and parry for that matter) don't have a lot to do with how many hits you can survive without healing. Oh, once in awhile you'll get very lucky and dodge 3 hits in a row that would have killed you, but nobody is going to stack dodge for that once in a blue moon scenario. Instead, of all of those mechanics let you take less damage over the 6-8 minutes of a boss fight. If you just were hit every one of those times, healers would run out of mana trying to keep you up. Yes the incoming damage would be relatively constant and predictable, but you'd still be dead.

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...prot-warriors/
January 25, 2018
DarkenedHue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Assuming you are defining Effective Health as armor x health, then it isn't and never has been our goal to have effective health be identical among all the tanks. Cooldowns, avoidance, emergency buttons and other class mechanics are all part of that package for us. What matters to us is whether or not the four tanks can tank the content with more or less the same chance of success. That's the metric we use, not a single number.

Well he totally nailed it there didn't he.

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