[Discussion Thread] Brainstorming a new playstyle for pve feral cat.

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August 24, 2024
Kovachut

HOVV THE CHICKEN VVORKS ON VVARMANE

The following should already be common knowledge, but for the sake of documentation I'm dedicating a separate post for it.

The https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=23060 doesn't stack with itself on Icecrown and on Lordearon.

Shocking, ye I know. /s

Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't have written this post at all. However, after the somewhat recent bug report I've stumbled upon contradicting information that apparently the squawk could stack with itself. Today I've decided to test it, and as you can see in the following videos, it doesn't work like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvQjE_gwbJ4
(both Battle Squawks were mine; the new overwrote the previous one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXhwaEAWTk
(the 2-min chicken buff on my char was from my chicken; the other person's chicken overwrote my buff with its Battle Squawk)

Quote:

8/24 02:23:18.805 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0xF13000228410744A,"Battle Chicken",0xa28,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x511 ,23060,"Battle Squawk",0x1,BUFF

8/24 02:23:18.811 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0xF13000228410809B,"Battle Chicken",0x11112,0x06000000004A7741,"Kovachut",0x5 11,23060,"Battle Squawk",0x1,BUFF

8/24 02:23:18.811 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0xF13000228410809B,"Battle Chicken",0x11112,0x06000000002E5832,"Kicov",0x512, 23060,"Battle Squawk",0x1,BUFF

8/24 02:23:18.811 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0xF13000228410809B,"Battle Chicken",0x11112,0xF13000228410809B,"Battle Chicken",0x11112,23060,"Battle Squawk",0x1,BUFF

So, yeah. VVhen we use the chickens, we still need to rotate them. IF stacking is possible, then it only concerns Onyxia and not the other realms.
August 27, 2024
Kovachut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovachut

PRE-PULL SAVAGE ROAR

AN EXPLOIT OR A LEGIT THEORYCRAFT?
(FOLLOVV-UP POST)

I. VVhat I know with 100% certainty - the situation for Alliance cats and rogues

There are many different ways one can obtain a pre-pull SR prior to a boss encounter, however in this post I'll only talk about my recently proposed methods in RS and in ICC - i.e. attacking a mob in the instance, exiting and re-entering said instance, casting SR, and accepting a warlock summon to the boss's room. This particular theorycraft is made possible thanks to the following four major interactions:

1) Attacking a mob and leaving the instance clears our aggro.
2) The process of leaving and re-entering an instance doesn't erase our CPs.
3) CPs stay on our target when we leave combat.
4) Accepting a summon to the boss's room doesn't remove our SR as long as we remain inside the instance when we cast the finisher.

1) As mentioned in the last post of the previous page, being able to clear one's aggro after leaving an instance is considered an intended interaction as per wowpedia.

2) I'll briefly skip the part about us preserving CPs after leaving and re-entering instances and go back to it later.

3) The following videos are from retail VVotLK, and they show how CPs remained on the main target after the player left combat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuWOFtk6JS4

At 2:19, the cat player cast Mangle and ran away from the other guy. At 2:29, we can see for a brief moment that the CPs remained on his target, and at 2:45 this is easier to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx8TWFDIugY

The video is low quality, but at 1:20 the rogue player used Vanish, and he got to keep his CPs on the caster enemy. The same thing occurred in the time frame 1:53-1:59. If you can't see the CPs on the enemy portraits, please look at the rogue's UI.

VVhat do those videos have to do with this theorycraft? VVell... Alliance cats can use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=58984 to leave combat if they're "the last person left alive that the creature hates" (wikipedia). Doing so, they'll trigger the mob's evasion and clear themselves of aggro. This means that they can keep their CPs w/o any worries after using their racial.

4) For the last point, I couldn't find any articles from retail VVotLK that described that interaction. I also didn't find any specific videos that showcased it, so I decided to expand my options and accept any video showcasing how one preserves their buffs after using the instance teleporters. Kinda like what I did here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OheVQrT-Bc

Before I continue, I'd like to say something which has been bothering me for quite some time now - I ****ing hate how unreliable Google has become as a search engine and how this also affects YouTube. If I type a specific keyword, then those websites present me with results which I didn't even ask for. It's a pain to find old videos from 2008-2010 because I only get recommended stuff from warmane and Classic VVotLK, so I've decided to stop wasting my time and share with you what I found. If someone knows where to look and can share links to videos showcasing what I'm discussing here, please do so. I'd appreciate it.

Spoiler: Show

VVell, I found a way to find older videos on youtube. Thanks to this Reddit comment, I learnt that commands/keywords still work in the search field. I followed that guy's advice, and I was pleasantly surprise to see the old videos again:

https://i.imgur.com/dgcO3ND.png

Sadly, of the 20-30 videos I watched, where either a cat or a rogue player attacked DBS, none of them showed the player going to the next area with SR/SnD. All of them ended slightly after the boss was defeated, so I couldn't find any solid proof of whether or not buffs like SR and SnD persisted in retail VVotLK after the cat/rogue player entered the "upper reaches".
Anyway, with that out of the way here's what I managed to gather. The following videos are from VVrath Classic, which is not ideal, but they show that it was possible in the official Blizzard servers to preserve one's combat buffs after moving to different sections of the raid instance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neG9sP1dbW8
(clicking on the teleporter at 19:20 didn't remove SR)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt84Y37hRrE
(clicking on the teleporter at 1:21:26 didn't remove SnD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga3Y3FsSyqw
(clicking on the teleporter at 10:38 didn't remove SnD)

Conclusions
As far as the original VVotLK expansion is concerned:
- a pre-pull SR would have definitely been a legit trick for Alliance cats in RS (same goes to SnD for rogues);
- a pre-pull SR might have been a legit trick for Alliance cats in ICC (same goes to SnD for rogues).
II. VVhat I don't know with 100% certainty - the situation for Horde cats

Now I'm going back to the second argument about whether or not preserving CPs after leaving and re-entering instances was possible in retail VVotLK. This is the part I don't really know because it's not documented in any of the official sources like wowwiki or wowpedia. There could be several reasons for why the latter might have been the case - I personally think that it might not have been obvious to the people back then how they could have profited from leaving and re-entering instances + in the later expansions, CPs were designed to be attached to the players and not their enemies, so there might not have been that much incentive to playtest things - but those are irrelevant right now.

I want to explain why I'm even bringing up this topic in the first place and not marking the theorycraft as 100% legitimate. If someone searches the phrase "combo point" on the internet, they'll stumble upon the wowpedia page, where the following restrictions are brought up in the patch notes:

Quote:

- Patch 2.0.3 (2007-01-09): Combo points added to a target should not be reset until you add a combo point to a different target.

- Patch 1.4.0 (2005-04-19): Combo points will no longer be removed if the target is deselected. They will only be removed if a different target is selected.

According to wowpedia, the only way for us to lose our already acquired CPs is when we cast a builder on another target. By that logic, if I were to, hypothetically speaking of course, move between two different continents:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqGyZcr4yrc

or even planets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_f7mjQ9RD0

the game devs shouldn't consider it a bug that I managed to preserve my CPs as that didn't stray away from the aforementioned restriction. By that very same logic, we should expect the same outcome after leaving and re-entering a raid instance. However, I should mention that wowpedia doesn't cover the whole story, as we can also lose our CPs in case:

- we log out (proof);
- we die (proof);
- our target dies (proof);
- we end a duel with another player (it doesn't matter if we store our CPs on the other person or on their pet) (proof).

From what I wrote above, I speculate that the way the game is designed, at least on warmane, is that it checks whether or not the "connection" between us and our CP-"safety deposit box" is "interrupted". This explains why we lose our CPs if we hard switch to a different target (the new target becomes our current "CP storage"). If we log out, then we "remove" our character from the game, and with it - any information concerning the state of our resources (this might also explain why the ICDs of our trinkets reset). The same might also be true when we die (with the exception that trinket ICDs don't reset). In case our enemy dies, the reason why CPs fade is probably because they're coded to stay only on living targets. I should add that said targets should be attackable by default as well - if we duel a member of our faction and end the duel, the game stops considering this person/their pet as valid targets for CPs, as they become our allies again. In this train of thought, I should mention that attacking a member of a faction, which can either be "at war" with us or not simply by toggling that option on and off, doesn't remove the CPs but it does prevent us from using them if we can't harm that NPC again (I got an error message after trying to use SR; the coding for that finisher might be similar to SnD's).

Yet, saying that the "connection" between us and our target needs to be "uninterrupted", is open for a lot of interpretation. Like, did you know that generating CPs on a mob inside an instance, leaving said instance, and resetting it doesn't remove them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq8hRNn-gM8

Stuff like that is not documented, and yet they're part of warmane's servers. Since there's a lot of missing information on how CPs behave and should have behaved back in retail VVotLK, I decided to ask a member of the warmane staff of their opinion on this theorycraft. This is what BlueAo had to say:

https://i.imgur.com/EwnMdTZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/NifJnTk.png

So, this was neither a confirmation of the legitimacy of this CP behaviour nor that it was a bug. For me, what BlueAo said was "It's fine... until proven otherwise". If someone knows whether or not it was possible on retail WotLK (2008-2010) to preserve CPs after leaving and re-entering an instance, please let me know and please provide proof.
September 2, 2024
Kovachut

GNOMISH CLOAKING DEVICE - A NEUTRAL "SHADOVVMELD"?

I stumbled upon the aforementioned item purely by accident, and its hidden effect surprised me. I suspect that others might be already aware of it, but I'm once again writing a post for documentation purposes.

Disclaimer: This post does NOT cover any benefits in the context of speedrunning.

I. Backstory

After finishing my theorycraft concerning a pre-pull SR, I thought that the next best course of action would be to direct my attention to unpopular items with the hope of finding a new interaction. Tbh, I was skeptical that I would find something new, knowing that there were dedicated theorycrafters in (VVrath) Classic that left no stone unturned, but I still wanted to give it a shot.

I used wowhead's item data base and wrote "movement speed" in the "Effect Description" tab. I found https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=23824, which directed me to https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=35581, which in turn directed me to https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=4397. I must say, the very first comment on that item's page caught me by surprise:

Quote:

As of 3.0.8 the Cloaking Device DOES REMOVE YOU FROM COMBAT WHEN USED and can be used to survive wipes, drop aggro, or leave combat!

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=4...evice#comments

"A neutral https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=1856 in the form of a trinket?", I said to myself. Before buying the mats, I checked the bug tracker, and others also stated that this item should work like "Mage's Invsilibty / Vanish / Shadowmeld".
II. Testing the Gnomish Cloaking Device

I decided to test it, and I can confirm that it does work like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7482JIdSNGE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3zipZDs7sE

As you can see, I managed to remove my threat and keep the CPs. Knowing this, I decided to revisit my very first idea of obtaining CPs in ICC (i.e. by using the enemy healer in the Rampart of Skulls as a punching bag). Sadly, I didn't get the same result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=souyBv2fk_4
(At the end of the video, I was still in combat.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyXZlIpDIlA
(At the end of the video, I was still in combat.)

The combat status persisted because of the friendly NPCs, who attacked the enemies chasing me. This means that the Cloaking device is more akin to https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=62199 than https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=1856. The following comments on wowhead further solidify this idea:

Quote:

By 387939 (212 – 2·2) on 2009/06/10 (Patch 3.1.3)
hm. I was in fight with Mimiron and it did NOT remove me from combat when i used it

.
.
.

61769 on 2009/07/18 (Patch 3.1.3)
I think it works the way Shadowmeld works nowadays. If you're the only person in a group with aggro on a certain mob, you'll drop combat. If your buddies are around and have aggro'd said mob as well, you'll remain in combat. If you pop the trinket after your buddies die (shadowmeld and fade is uh, helpful in this regard), you will drop combat (unless the boss has some crazy mechanics; eg, the world dragons teleporting people right to them, stopping runners).

Before I finish this subsection, I want to mention that ever since I bought the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46780 on my Horde character, I was curious to see whether attacking it and using https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=62199 would remove my aggro in a raid instance. I couldn't test it in the past because I didn't have a Night Elf character with the pinata, and I was not willing to invest time in leveling that toon with x1 XP rates on Lordearon and spend 15 coins to purchase the aforementioned vanity item. Thanks to the Cloaking Device, I was able to test that interaction, and the answer is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK0hbShPxsY

it doesn't work. I guess the Pinata doesn't evade for some reason. This means that the only way to remove our threat when using it is either by exiting the instance through the main entrance or taking a portal to a major city and accepting a warlock summon.
III. Potential uses

Knowing that the Cloaking Device is similar to Shadowmeld, we need to ask ourselves the following questions - "VVhat would a Horde cat player finally be able to do with the pseudo Shadowmeld which was not possible in the past?" and "VVould the benefits justify the consistent usage of this trinket, or would it just remain a fun gadget with marginal applications?".

Even without diving deep into this topic, I can answer the last question right now. Due to the horrendous one hour-long GCD coupled with the fact that the item occupies a trinket slot, we can safely treat the Gnomish Cloaking Device as something marginal. No one is going to miss out on anything grandiose if they don't include it in their weekly raids. Having said that, I want to mention the only situation beside speedrunning where this item can be considered.

From the very beginning, I immediately thought of combining this trinket with the pre-pull SR. Now, obviously, this won't be used in the situations where the Horde players can just exit the instance through the main entrance, but there is a situation where this might not be possible. Before engaging Professor Putricide, the whole raid needs to clear Festergut and Rotface first. Since there are no teleporters nearby, the cat player either needs to accept the fact that they have to engage those bosses w/o building CPs for a pre-pull SR, or they need to go back to the Upper Spire and teleport to the first floor, which would waste a lot of time if the trash has already been cleared. There is a way, however, to obtain CPs in the Plagueworks. By using the Fleshreapers on the tubes:

https://i.imgur.com/DQEP3rK.png

we can lure them out with FFF and acquire CPs on them. Alliance cats would obviously use their https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=62199, but Horde cats can use the https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=4397 to remove their threat like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZyDhCMouU

UWU logs link

Another potential application of this trinket is to help us acquire Agile stacks before engaging the boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVa385tiNSM

In the video above, you can see how the Skulking Geist returned to its position on the tubes, and I was able to keep the CPs. In addition to this, I wanted to test whether I would be able to build https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=71175 stacks on those mobs if I use https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52504. As you can see, this was possible - Lacerate kept ticking while I was out of combat.

I should mention two things in this regard - first of all, this phenomenon can only be observed on those Geists. If I do it on any other mob, the debuff would fade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nCJBf6Ed20

because this is how evasion works. This not being the case with the Fleshreaper geists is either due to a bug or due to the fact that they're scripted to scamper on the tubes. Secondly, the latter "discovery" might be useless because once I re-equip STS, I trigger its 45 seconds-long ICD, which is greater than the duration of the 5/5 Agile proc. On paper, an Alliance cat can play around it by swapping out their STS in advance, so that they don't sit through the whole duration of its ICD after attacking the geists, but imho it's still a lot of work and stress for having 220 Agility from the get-go.
May 11, 2025
Kovachut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovachut

HOVV THE CHICKEN VVORKS ON VVARMANE

FOLLOVV-UP

I. Preface

As I've made it clear in my guide, I'm currently trying to obtain CPs prior to some bosses in ICC for a pre-pull SR. The usual setup looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erLXpTZl5Kg

Please watch the time frame 2:43-3:24 carefully. During that time, I summoned the chicken and it behaved as one would expect it to - it was passive. However, when I did my usual setup yesterday, something odd happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hcOv_lcGO8

The chicken started attacking the neutral critters near the doorway. This temporarily put me in combat, and as a result I was unable to accept the warlock summon necessary for the pre-pull setup. Fortunately for me, I managed to get into the fight on time, but this incident forced me to examine the attack behaviour of the chicken more thoroughly, as the viability of the pre-pull setup depended on it. After all, why would someone trouble themself with an intricate setup for a pre-pull SR if their own Gnomish Chicken can potentially screw them anyway? Or to put it better, why would someone choose the pre-pull setup over the chicken, if the latter is not only easier to use but also affects everyone in the party group? Since it's obvious what the popular pick would be, I wanted to understand the mechanics surrounding the chicken better and prove that it didn't have any anti-synergies with the setup.
II. The chicken's attack behaviour

In my pursuit to find the cause of the unusual interaction, I tested the following scenarios:

Summoning the chicken and right-clicking on an enemy (nothing happened)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdb7JrQ86Ag

Right-clicking on an enemy and then summoning the chicken (the chicken becomes hostile towards the mob)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INDOAdAGYt0

During the raid, I did neither of those things. In fact, when I summoned the chicken near the entrance, it was passive at first as well. For a long time, I couldn't figure out where the issue came from. Then started doing some unrelated things - like cycloning and FFF-ing the critters (more on that later) - and all of a sudden it dawned onto me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGtYSXBhYn4

The problem didn't come from me or my chicken; it came from the critters themselves.

So, let me explain how leashing works. If I'm in an instance and I inflict some kind of a negative effect on a mob, I enter an eternal combat state, unless 1) I die, 2) the mob dies, 3) I force the mob to evade due to a difference in elevation, or 4) I leave the instance. This principle concerns all non-critter attackable NPCs. Critters, on the other hand, follow a different set of rules. Now, I don't know if this is a bug or not, but if I afflict them with a non-lethal debuff (like Cyclone or FFF), I leave combat after a few seconds, but the critter remains in that state. The gnomish chicken realises it as well.

Even though I didn't do anything harmful to the critters near the doorway during the raid, I suspect they were in combat due to the abilities of my teammates whilst clearing the trash. This is why my chicken attacked them and not the ones near the main entrance.

VVhile no one can possibly know which critter is in this pseudo-combat state, ultimately it doesn't matter. The range of SR is 100 yards and it can ignore obstacles like walls, so if someone wants to prevent their chicken from attacking the critters, that person can go to a spot where there are none - e.g. near the Dalaran portal. Afterwards, they use a targeting macro and cast SR when the time comes.

Having said that, one can also use this knowledge to their advantage and intentionally provoke their chicken to attack a critter:

Summoning the chicken and Cycloning an enemy (the chicken attacks it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-l5BBwTeWY

Summoning the chicken and FFF-ing an enemy (the chicken attacks it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42n1lDfAkP8

At the end of the video with the Cyclone, I managed to obtain an early Battle Squawk. On theory, a person can do the DBS pre-pull tactic and use Cyclone/FFF on any critter in order to increase their odds of getting the 5% haste buff. According to this bug report:

https://i.imgur.com/T2mxKV4.png

Doing something in this regard shouldn't screw the other melees as with each attack the chicken may decide to use the Squawk (unless there's some kind of an ICD I'm not aware of).
III. Forcefully despawning the chicken

To close it off, I found out that the chicken disappears if the player changes instances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2bG17WSbdU

This means that if someone wants to use their chicken alongside the pre-pull setup, they need to be done with the setup first and also inside ICC.
June 27, 2025
Kovachut
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovachut

LOGGING OUT VVITH TEMPORARY BUFFS

FOLLOVV-UP POST

I. Preface

VVhile I was working on the pre-pull SR theorycraft, I witnessed a peculiar interaction with my trinkets. If I log out, their ICDs doesn't reset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWoYXAOWnWs

- 0:45 I logged in and started attacking the dummy
- 0:48 I got the trinket proc from Deathbringer's Will
- 0:49 I got the trinket proc from Sharpened Twilight Scale

- 2:41 I logged in
- 2:58 I started attacking the dummy and got both trinket procs

This wasn't the case in the past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh7Vq28izzY

- 0:50 I logged in and started attacking the dummy
- 1:38 I got the trinket proc from Whispering Fanged Skull
- 1:42 I got the trinket proc from Banner of Victory

Since there isn't concrete information on the internet which interaction is Blizzlike, I thought I should analyse the potential damage gain from the extra Hysteria. In the next subsection, I will share my thoughts on the matter, but before I get into it I would like to mention one more thing - BL doesn't work the way we want because the timer of the Sated debuff freezes when we log out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viK7kHCcjyo
II. Analysis

As I've said in the quoted post, CPs and SR disappear when we log out, so we can't have a pre-pull SR and a 2nd Hysteria at the same time - we need to choose between either buff. Now the question is which one is more powerful.

A) Calculating the damage of the pre-pull Hysteria

I'll begin my analysis in a simple way; I will observe two regular rotations in the simcraft featuring BiS ICC & RS gear and Hysteria, but I will give one extra to the second example:

One Hysteria
https://i.imgur.com/XIHZzyS.png
https://i.imgur.com/Jlu0DSo.png

Two Hysterias
https://i.imgur.com/oNT4v3y.png
https://i.imgur.com/dmVHQNS.png

So, the damage difference between those two rotations is 650 dps in a 2-min fight. This means that having an extra, 30 seconds-long Hysteria equals that amount of dps. I intentionally express myself like this because the pre-pull Hysteria is shorter than this.

I'll go off-topic for a bit and talk about the mechanics surrounding the "logging out" event. If our character isn't resting, then logging out lasts 20 seconds and prevents us from using any actions. This is why Berserk doesn't work. Unfortunately, pre-casting GotVV and obtaining a pre-pull CC doesn't work as well because the buff expires in the meantime. This means one of the following two things: 1) either the cat player needs to log in early to cast GotVV, obtain a CC proc, and regenerate his energy (in case of 3/5 Furor), or 2) he needs to forget about the pre-pull CC proc.

Based on this information, here's how the damage gain from the pre-pull Hysteria would change:

1) Shorter duration

Casting the druid buff triggers a caster GCD (1.5 sec) and puts the cat player in Tauren form. If that player has 3/5 Furor, he will need 4 seconds to regenerate his energy after going back in cat form. So, just from this we can reduce Hysteria's duration by 5 seconds (assuming GotVV is cast only once).

Now we need to acknowledge usage of Hysteria during the log out period. For optimal results, the BDK needs to buff the cat player as late as possible before the latter logs out, though I suspect that most of the time it will be 1-2 seconds before that happens.

Finally, let's talk address the time when the cat player logs back into the game. Now, I don't imagine that the cat player logs back into the game and immediately starts casting the druid buff, switches to cat form, and attacks the boss without delay. Imho, in a more realistic scenario the cat player would log in early to prepare and to position himself in peace. How early is speculative here, but I'd say 3 seconds for simplicity's sake.

So, from all of this we can expect that the pre-pull Hysteria would last around 20 seconds.

650*20/30 = 433.3(3)

This is the damage we'd get if we decide to sacrifice a few seconds of Hysteria in favour of a pre-pull CC proc. However, what if we go w/o it?

2) No pre-pull CC proc

https://i.imgur.com/t3GSg5f.png

So 490 dps, but this also considers the presence of a 30 seconds-long Hysteria. If we skip on the pre-pull CC proc, we don't need to cast the druid buff and regenerate our energy because it will already be at 100. However, we still need time to prepare and position ourselves. This is why I will deduct only 5 seconds from the pre-pull Hysteria:

490*25/30 = 408.3(3)

Now that I've calculated the damage of the pre-pull Hysteria, let me do so with the pre-pull SR:

B) Calculating the damage of the pre-pull SR

As stated in the past, beginning with SR increases the damage of the first Mangle and first 2 AAs. VVe also cast Rip 2 seconds earlier because we go Mangle -> Rake -> Shred -> Rip instead of Mangle -> SR -> Rake -> Shred -> Shred -> Rip. This is why the damage gain from these attacks is:

Quote:

- buffed Mangle at start = 10,467.97 (2,597.32 damage gain)
- 2 buffed AAs at start = 6,728.28 (1,669.42 damage gain)
- extra Rip tick = 4,984.65 (4,984.65 damage gain)

without trinket procs and Hysteria.

Assuming the pre-pull SR has an extended duration (32+), we're no longer required to cast SR prior the second Rip. As a result, we are left with additional resources (i.e. energy and CPs) during the uptime of STS, DBVV, and Hysteria. VVe will either use them for a Shred or for a 5-CP FB depending on how aggressive we are with our CPs (and how lucky we are with CC procs at the beginning). According to Rawr:

- an extra Shred would net us 21,883 damage with STS, DBVV (Str.), and Hysteria;
- an extra 5-CP FB would net us 39,834 damage with STS, DBVV (Str.), and Hysteria;

I add that damage to one mentioned above and get:
- 2,597.32 + 1,669.42 + 4,984.65 + 21,883 = 31,134 or 259.45
- 2,597.32 + 1,669.42 + 4,984.65 + 39,834 = 49,085 or 409.04
C) Comparing the damage

Admittedly, both pre-pull SR examples are weaker than the 20-sec pre-pull Hysteria, however if I ignore the example with the extra Shred, the damage difference between both pre-pull techniques is rather miniscule.

D) Practicality

Even though the pre-pull Hysteria requires less effort from the cat player - he just needs to log out and back in - this wastes a lot of raid time and slows down progression. Hysteria has a 3-min CD, and in order for the trick to work, the entire raid needs to wait for the BDK's Hysteria to come off CD before they engage the boss. VVhile it's not impossible, I seriously doubt that most guild RLs would allow this. I'm not even going to consider pug raids for obvious reasons.

E) Other note-worthy things

Going for a pre-pull Hysteria prevents the usage of the Gnomish Chicken (though, it's possible to log out with the Squawk and to keep it).
III. Closing thoughts

VVhile going for a pre-pull Hysteria is easier and stronger, it wastes a lot of raiding time, and as a result (I suspect) few RLs would actually allow it.

Furthermore, I personally doubt that the current trinket ICD behaviour is intended because I can obtain two different DBVV procs at the same time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTUQZZ8Q3xE

I'm aware that the pre-pull buff will have a very short duration after the log-out, but it doesn't change the fact that it's possible to have two diff. buffs, which was never documented before. However, this is just my personal speculation - I don't know how this used to work in retail and in Classic VVotLK. I cannot prove which interaction is Blizzlike, so I can't make a proper bug report. If someone knows, please let me know.

.
.
.
.
.

[Update 29.06.2025] There's a way to "improve" the pre-pull Hysteria opener. If the cat player goes to a city by using hearthstone or a mage portal, that person will enter "resting" status which will allow him to log out w/o delay. Before doing that, he can trigger his DBVV trinket and OoC talent, and pop Berserk. Once the raid group is ready to engage the boss, the cat player needs to accept a summon. These buffs will remain when he enters the instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4-anm8lQOg
(0:31 my buffs remained after entering the raid instance)

However, this comes with three major issues:

1) The BDK needs to follow us to that city so that they can give us Hysteria.
2) This will waste a lot of time - more so than before. If both players take a portal to a city, they need to head towards the nearest target dummy (or attackable critter), so that the cat player can trigger his DBVV trinket. Afterwards, the cat player casts Berserk and logs out, at which point the entire raid group waits 3 min for both Hysteria and Berserk to come off CD.
3) The whole thing requires rly good coordination but the pay-off is small. Like, the whole summoning process lasts 10 seconds, which will greatly shorten the duration of the pre-pull Berserk and OoC proc. Only the pre-pull DBVV will have around 20s duration.

Even then, I really doubt that this interaction is not some kind of a bug exploit.
September 15, 2025
Heryberry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovachut

SOLUTION?
[Update: 07/07/2022] No, we don't. I was in an Onyxia 25-man run two months ago, and although I don't have any footage of the fight, I remember seeing from time to time how the 5% crit didn't appear with the addition of 2 fwarriors. Seeing how inconsistent the delay is, I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that it's a visual bug. However, since I don't have any proof for this, I can't promote this claim. Use this information as you want. I would appreciate if someone monitors fights with and without the GotVV-shift and shows me whether the delay is real or just an illusion.

I would imagine you'd go out of your way to get a real evidence, there was actually a way to test it without hacking or anything, when holiday events popped you could get up to 95% of crit, or maybe if there's somebody who knows how this game works well on technical level you could ask him about it.
December 25, 2025
nononomore

why are we trying to reinvent the wheel here?

First off, since world of logs went down its near impossible to compare anything anymore at least at the accuracy level needed to submit good detailed reports reports.

There is so much info that is overwhelming for anyone trying to actually read any of it. I already have seen things in this thread that are completely wrong or completely insane. Same with your guide. Ill just say this abou tall these new guides cropping up, and i dont know if its been covered or not- classic wrath really screwed with people here. Did we forget that classic wrath had different scripts, spells, rework for abilities that classic wrath (aka icecrown and lord) never will nor never have had? Seems a lot of newer guides and a lot of the community forget there is a huge difference.
December 25, 2025
Kovachut

Hi.

If you see something that's wrong, please quote the wrong part and provide proper argumentation. I will consider your points and if stand corrected, I will make changes. I will not accept generic responses from you, Funkymusic, just so you know.

I don't know which parts you deem incorrect in any of my threads, but please note that I've based my conclusions based on the current behaviour on warmane (such as the situation with the druid buff). I didn't blatantly copy information from Wrath Classic and said that it's true for warmane. Furthermore, some posts in this thread were written before Wrath Classic was released - this is especially true for the GotVV-shift with the "stopattack" command.

Off-topic - I have work later, so I won't be able to reply to your post immediately. You can accept a follow-up from me tomorrow or at the weekend.

Happy holidays!
December 27, 2025
Kovachut
HOVV ACCURATE ARE RAVVR AND THE FERAL SIMCRAFT?

I. Preface

Funkymusic, I don't expect you to come and respond to any of my comments. However, if you do decide to continue our previous conversation, I expect you to read this post entirely and to give me constructive feedback for the things I was allegedly wrong about. This includes quoting the part(s) you disagree with, giving me proper explanation why X is wrong, and preferably some numbers as further proof for your claim. Keep in mind, most of the things I have written here and in the guide come from analysing different builds and scenarios in Rawr and the feral simcraft + personal playtesting of the mechanics on warmane, and saying I was wrong about something would mean that you disagree with the results from those programs. I'm quite stubborn you see, and I will require solid evidence why I should change my previous conclusions. Generic comments will not be accepted as valid criticism.

That said, I consider this is a good opportunity to defend the accuracy of the sources of information I use most often, namely Rawr and the feral simcraft. So, if someone is skeptical about the information in the guide, here you can get an idea how the information in those programs reflects the current script on warmane. Let's begin with the actual script of our abilities.
II. How are our feral abilities scripted?

I'll concentrate only on the most commonly used spells in cat form, namely AA, Mangle, Shred, Rake, Rip, and FB.

A) Our cat bleeds (Rake & Rip)

I want to start with our bleeds because they are not affected by armour and therefore are the easiest to calculate and to check.

https://i.imgur.com/M1I3Q6T.png

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48574

However, the damage of this ability is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16999, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48566, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Rake = (AP/100+176+3*358+AP*0.18)*Savage Fury*Mangle*SR*Naturalist
! For Frostmourners and people w/o 4pt10 - (AP/100+176) is the thing that crits. Everything else - doesn't. !
Rake (non-crit, 4pt10 or no 4pt10) = (AP/100+AP.18+1250)*2.28228
Rake (crit, 4pt10) = (AP/100+AP.18+1250)*5.17164648
Rake (crit, no 4pt10) = ((AP/100+176)*5.17164648)+((AP*0.18+1074)*2.28228)

Let's see how accurate this formula is. On my Lordearon cat, I have 10983 AP:

https://i.imgur.com/EfOKBXK.png

If I were to use this value in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Rake (initial attack, no crit) = (10983/100 +176)*2.28228 = 652.34
Rake (initial attack, crit) = (10983/100 +176)*5.17164648 = 1,478.21
Rake (tick, no crit) = (10983*0.06+358)*2.28228 = 2,321.033
Rake (tick, crit) = (10983*0.06+358)*5.17164648 = 5,259.46

Imgur link

https://i.imgur.com/JytJKwj.png

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49800

However, the damage of this ability is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48566, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. In addition, Rip's duration is extended with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40902 and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40902. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Rip (no additional bonuses) = (36+93*5+0.05*AP)*11*SR*Mangle*Naturalist
Rip (-//-) = (AP*0.05+501)*20.9209
Rip (-//-, crit) = (AP*0.05+501)*47.4067594
Rip (multiplier with 2pt7) = 24.7247 or 56.0261702 (in case of a critical strike)
Rip (base damage with Rip Idol) = (AP*0.05+606)

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Rip (single tick, no crit) = (10983*0.05+501)*1.9019 = 1,997.28
Rip (single tick, crit) = (10983*0.05+501)*4.3097054 = 4,525.84

Imgur link

B) Damage reduction caused by the boss's armour

The remaining abilities are all affected by the boss's armour, how much Armour Penetration we have, and what kind of armour reduction debuffs said boss has. I'm not sure how much armour a target dummy has, so I will consider the standard one (10,643). On my feral cat, I have 1399 Arp, so I'm sitting at the maximum cap but during this experiment I didn't use FFF. To calculate how much damage will be applied under such circumstances, I will use these formulas:

Quote:

ArP cap = (Armor + 15232.5)/3
EffectiveArmor = Armor – ArP rating / 1399.6 * min{Arp cap, Armor}
DR% = EffectiveArmor / (EffectiveArmor + 15232.5)
DA% = 1 – DR%

Sources: warmane article and VVrath Classic video by SimonizeShow

and get these values:

Quote:

ArP cap = (10,643 + 15232.5)/3 = 8,625.17
EffectiveArmor = 10,643 - 8,625.17 = 2,017.83
Damage Reduction = 2,017.83/(2,017.83+15232.5) = 0.117 or 11.7%
Damage Applied = 1-0.117 = 0.883 or 88.3%

I will use 0.883 to calculate the damage that is applied after the armour reduction.

C) FB

I've purposely chosen to show the script for this ability first because it's not based on our flat damage. The formula looks like so:

https://i.imgur.com/ahQWjhU.png

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48577

However, the damage of this ability is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16862, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

FB 5CPs (Rend and Tear increases the crit chance by 25, so I’ll might as well concentrate on the critical strike):
FB = (190+290*5+0.35*AP)*Feral Aggression*SR*Naturalist*2*Predatory Instincts*Meta Gem
FB = (0.35*AP+1640)*3.8124317

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

FB (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = (0.35*10983+1640)*1.68245*0.883 = 8,147.12
FB (crit on average, reduced by armour) = (0.35*10983+1640)*3.8124317*0.883 = 18,461.38

Imgur link

These values are slightly below the damage on the screenshot but quite similar still.

D) Flat damage-based abilities (AA, Mangle, Shred)

For the remaining abilities, there isn't a clear formula in evowow which I can show right now. This is what's mentioned there:

https://i.imgur.com/nVCNRY8.png

https://i.imgur.com/RGvr85c.png

Sources: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48566, https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48572

However, the damage of those abilities is based on our weapon damage, aka our paw damage which is based on this formula:

Quote:

paw damage = AP/14 + 54.8

Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Feral_attack_power

So, let's begin with our white attacks. Their damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

cat AA = ((AP/14)+54.8)*Naturalist*SR
cat AA (non-crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*1.463
cat AA (glancing) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*1.09725
cat AA (crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*3.315158

a glancing attack reduces the "hit" damage by 25%

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

cat AA (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8)*1.463*0.883 = 1,084.23
cat AA (glancing on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8)*1.09725*0.883 = 813.17
cat AA (crit on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8)*3.315158*0.883 = 2,456.87

Imgur link

These values are quite similar to the damage shown in the screenshots.

Moving onto Mangle. Its tooltip states "200% normal damage plus 566" however its damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16999, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Mangle cat = (Autoattack damage*2+566)*Naturalist*Savage Fury*Savage Roar
Mangle cat (non-crit)= (((AP/14)+54.8)*2+566)*1.7556
Mangle cat (crit)=(((AP/14)+54.8)*2+566)*3.9781896

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Mangle (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8)*2+566)*1.7556*0.883 = 3,479.57
Mangle (crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8)*2+566)*3.9781896*0.883 = 7,884.69

Imgur link

These values are quite similar to the damage on the screenshot.

Finally, we have Shred. Its tooltip states "causing 225% damage plus 666" however its damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=51269, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=52610 (33% with https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=64307), https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 + https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Shred = (AA*2.25 + 666)*Naturalist*Mangle*SR*Rend and Tear
Shred(non-crit)= (((AP/14)+54.8)*2.25+666)*2.28228
Shred(crit)=(((AP/14)+54.8)*2.25+666)*5.17164648
Shred (base damage with Shred Idol) = (((AP/14)+54.8)*2.25+869)

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Shred (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8)*2.25+666)*2.28228*0.883 = 5,147.81
Shred (crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8)*2.25+666)*5.17164648*0.883 = 11,664.94

Imgur link

These values are quite similar to the damage on the screenshot.

So, the formulas I've used before accurately describe the current script on warmane. Where does Rawr come in?
III. Does Rawr accurately calculate the damage of our abilities?

To better check the situation with Rawr, I created the same build as my feral cat w/o any raid buffs:

https://i.imgur.com/13fxvSn.png

To remove all kinds of RNG, I removed both trinkets and the Berserking enchant, but I added 351 in one of the items, so that I can retain my passive Arp stat boost. I also removed the idol because I didn't use it in-game. These are the calculated values by Rawr:

Quote:

AA (hit) - 1144.66
AA (average) - 1980.9

Mangle (hit) - 3655.96
Mangle (average) - 6590.06

Shred (hit) - 5407.89
Shred (average) - 9748.02

Rake (hit) - 7615.44
Rake (average) - 13727.24

Rip (average) - 21970.08
Rip (average) - 39602.26

FB (average) - 8438.33
FB (average) - 17881.27

Before I begin comparing the values, I want to note that Rawr adds 16 weapon damage from TF in the calculated damage for our AAs, Mangles, and Shreds. Having said that, the post will continue:

A) Cat bleeds

I'll start with them once again because they're easy to calculate and check. Rawr doesn't show each individual tick, rather the overall damage - 7615.44 (everything is hit) and 13727.24 (on average for someone with 63.39% crit chance). If I have to redo my calculations with this in mind, they would look like this:

Quote:

Rake (overall, no crit) = 652.34 + 3*2,321.033 = 7,615.439

Rake (initial attack, average with 63.39%) = 652.34*(1-0.6339) + 1,478.21*0.6339 = 1,175.85899
Rake (tick damage, average with 63.39%) = 2,321.033 *(1-0.6339) + 5,259.46*0.6339 = 4,183.702

Rake (overall, average) = 1,175.85899 + 3*4,183.702 = 13,726.96

So, I got the same numbers for Rake which Rawr shows. VVith Rip, I just need to multiply the tick damage by 11 (due to the extensions from both major glyphs), which would look like so:

Quote:

Rip (overall, no crit) = 1,997.28*11 = 21,970.08

Rip (tick damage, average with 63.39%) = 1,997.28*(1-0.6339) + 4,525.84*0.6339 = 3,600.134

Rip (overall, average) = 3,600.134*11 = 39,601.47

Quite identical to what Rawr shows.

B) FB

In the previous subsection, I estimated 8,147 damage for the "hit" FB and 18,461 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 8438.33 for the non-critical strike and 17881.27 (on average for someone with 63.39% crit chance). If I want to calculate the average damage of my FB, here's how the damage would look like:

Quote:

FB (average with 63.39%, affected by armour) = 8,147*(1-0.6339-0.25) + 18,461*(0.6339+0.25) = 17,263.54

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

C) AA

In the previous subsection, I estimated 1,084.23 damage for the "hit" AA, 813.17 damage for the "glancing" AA, and 2,456.87 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 1144.66 for the non-critical strike and 1980.9 (on average for someone with 63.39% crit chance), however those values include the 16 weapon damage. If I have to redo my calculations with this in mind, they would look like this:

Quote:

cat AA (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8+16)*1.463*0.883 = 1,104.9
cat AA (glancing on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8+16)*1.09725*0.883 = 828.676
cat AA (crit on average, reduced by armour) = ((10983/14)+54.8+16)*3.315158*0.883 = 2,503.706

cat AA (average, reduced my armour) = (828.676*0.24) + (2,503.706*0.6339) + 1,104.9*(1-0.24-0.6339) = 1,925.31

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

D) Mangle

In the previous subsection, I estimated 3,479.57 damage for the non-critical Mangle and 7,884.69 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 3655.96 for the non-critical strike and 6590.06 (on average for someone with 63.39% crit chance), however those values include the 16 weapon damage. If I have to redo my calculations with this in mind, they would look like this:

Quote:

Mangle (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8+16)*2+566)*1.7556*0.883 = 3,529.17
Mangle (crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8+16)*2+566)*3.9781896*0.883 = 7,997.11

Mangle (average, reduced by armour) = 3,529.17*(1-0.6339) + 7,997.11*0.6339 = 6,361.4

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

E) Shred

In the previous subsection, I estimated 5,147.81 damage for the non-critical Shred and 11,664.94 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 5407.89 for the non-critical strike and 9748.02 (on average for someone with 63.39% crit chance), however those values include the 16 weapon damage. If I have to redo my calculations with this in mind, they would look like this:

Quote:

Shred (non-crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8+16)*2.25+666)*2.28228*0.883 = 5,220.36
Shred (crit on average, reduced by armour) = (((10983/14)+54.8+16)*2.25+666)*5.17164648*0.883 = 11,829.34

Shred (average, reduced by armour) = 5,220.36*(1-0.6339) + 11,829.34*0.6339 = 9,409.79

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

Rawr shows slightly higher numbers for the Arp-based abilities, but overall the damage is quite similar to what we get in-game. Therefore, this program can be used. What about the VVrath Classic simcraft?
IV. Does the feral simcraft accurately calculate the damage of our abilities?

Before I continue, I want to mention that I used the old version of the feral simcraft for this experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVl4xlBdFRE

https://i.imgur.com/5DBEy3z.png

Let's compare them quickly:

A) Cat bleeds

According to the feral simcraft:

- a whole Rake would inflict 13856 damage on average which is quite similar to what Rawr shows (13727.24);
- a whole Rip would inflict 39243.4 damage on average which is quite similar to what Rawr shows (39602.26).

B) FB

According to the feral simcraft, FB would deal 18062.6 damage on average which is quite similar to what Rawr shows (17881.27).

C) AA

According to the feral simcraft, an AA would deal 1948.6 damage on average which is quite similar to what Rawr shows (1980.9).

D) Mangle

According to the feral simcraft, Mangle would deal 5555 damage on average, BUT this is because it considers the initial un-buffed Mangle. If I ignore that, this ability would deal 6380 damage on average which is quite similar to what I have calculated above (6,361.4).

E) Shred

According to the feral simcraft, Shred would deal 9558.2 damage on average which is very close to what Rawr shows (9748.02).

The feral simcraft shows similar numbers to what Rawr shows and therefore can be used by us.
V. Other things worth mentioning

Both Rawr and the feral simcraft display the same amount of AAs in the presence of haste buffs (incl. Bloodlust):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtctimmD6as
(I compare the number of AAs at 1:35)

The feral simcraft also displays 3.5 PPM for OoC which is the correct amount in patch 3.3.5 (source).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmegY7Ip_ms
(I show the PPM at 0:30)

In the following clip, I autoattacked the target dummy for 10 minutes straight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQssN29T5X0

Time when I got a CC proc:
1. 0:09
2. 0:30
3. 0:55
4. 1:08
5. 1:14
6. 1:21
7. 1:22
8. 1:29
9. 2:01
10. 2:42
11. 3:02
12. 3:17
13. 3:29
14. 3:38
15. 3:45
16. 4:09
17. 4:24
18. 4:32
19. 4:43
20. 4:45
21. 5:09
22. 5:23
23. 5:45
24. 6:00
25. 6:37
26. 6:48
27. 6:58
28. 7:21
29. 7:34
30. 7:39
31. 8:10
32. 8:14
33. 8:25
34. 8:38
35. 8:43
36. 8:53
37. 9:00
38. 9:39
39. 10:00
39 procs in 10 mins
=> 3.9 PPM with this RNG

This is quite similar to the shown results in the feral simcraft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ5ppnDuj5M
(41 procs for 10 mins or 4.1 PPM)
VI. Conclusion

As I've shown above, both programs depict (almost) the same damage as what we can expect in-game, so they can be used by us for more specific calculations. Because of this, I have 0 reason to doubt their evaluations. This is why I am completely confident in the accuracy of the information in my guide. This being said, I am always open to constructive criticism. If someone disagrees with something I've written there, I would gladly hear you out, but you need to be ready to provide me with proper argumentation and preferably with numbers if you want to convince me of your claims. Telling me "world of logs went down and it's near impossible to compare anything anymore" is not going to cut it, and I personally consider it a poor and lazy excuse for not doing any research - we have sources like wowhead and evowow that describe how exactly the abilities are scripted, we have programs that calculate those abilities for us, we can check the damage in-game, and therefore we can make comparisons and draw conclusions from them.

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Those are my conclusions for the monocat. As I've explained in the in this post, the simcraft calculates the damage for the GotVV-shift by using the "stopattack" command. This can be proven by checking the timestamps of the AAs in the timeline. Since this behaviour is present in warmane, I consider the simcraft to be an excellent tool to calculate the damage for flowershifting.

However, I'm not really sure about the actual power of Lacerateweaving anymore because the feral simcraft shows slightly higher numbers for Lacerate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKjBW4UMhVU

At the end of the video, you can see critical Lacerate ticks above 3k damage. However, with the same build in Rawr:

https://i.imgur.com/P6UmXmp.png

The non-critical Lacerate tick deals 1331 damage, whereas the critical does 2,741.86, so below 3k. I get that Lacerate receives the 10% multiplier from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=33867 once the bearweaver returns back to cat form, but even with this Lacerate doesn't reach 3.4k ( 2,741.86*1.1 = 3,016). I trust Rawr on this because this is how Lacerate is calculated:

Quote:

Lacerate (DoT, hit, 5-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1.1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*5(stack size)*1.2 (T10)

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48568

According to Rawr, going in bear form will leave me with 8520 AP, and if I use that value in the formula above, I will get:

Quote:

Lacerate (DoT, hit, 5-stack) = (64 + 8520*0.01)*1.04*1.1*1.3*5*1.2= 1,331.34

After checking the description for v0.1.22 of the simcraft, I see this message "feral: 'actually' fix saving lacerateweave stack saving". Maybe there was some kind of trick surrounding Lacerate in Classic VVrath, but I don't think it's applicable here. I'll check the older versions of the simcraft in the following days and see if I can find something that matches Rawr's values better. If I find a more appropriate version, I will update the screenshots concerning bearweaving and flowershifting in the guide.
December 28, 2025
Kovachut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovachut

HOVV ACCURATE ARE RAVVR AND THE FERAL SIMCRAFT?

FOLLOVV-UP POST

In this post, I just want to briefly explain the situation with the bear abilities because this concerns bearweaving as a whole. I prefer to do this in a separate post and not bloat the previous one with more information so that it could look "cleaner".

I. How are the bear abilities scripted?

I'll concentrate only on the most commonly used abilities in bear form, namely AA, Mangle, Maul, and Lacerate.

A) Lacerate

As mentioned before, bleed abilities are the easiest to calculate and to check. Lacerate is scripted the following way:

https://i.imgur.com/HXKybaB.png

Source: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48568

However, the damage of this ability is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48566, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48412, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=70724 (assuming 2pt10 like in my case) and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Lacerate (DoT, hit, 1-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)
Lacerate (DoT, hit, 2-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*2(stack size)
Lacerate (DoT, hit, 3-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*3(stack size)
Lacerate (DoT, hit, 4-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*4(stack size)
Lacerate (DoT, hit, 5-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*5(stack size)

Lacerate (DoT, crit, 1-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*2*1.03 (Meta Gem)
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 2-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*2(stack size)*2*1.03 (Meta Gem)
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 3-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*3(stack size)*2*1.03 (Meta Gem)
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 4-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*4(stack size)*2*1.03 (Meta Gem)
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 5-stack) = (64 + AP*0.01)*1.04 (Master Shapeshifter)*1,1 (Naturalist)*1.3 (Mangle)*5(stack size)*2*1.03 (Meta Gem)

Let's see how accurate this formula is. On my Icecrown cat, I have 8243 AP in bear form:

https://i.imgur.com/EFbwTrz.png

If I were to use this value in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Lacerate (DoT, hit, 5-stack) = (64 + 8243*0.01)*1.04*1.1*1.3*1.2*5 = 1,306.62
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 5-stack) = (64 + 8243*0.01)*1.04*1.1*1.3*1.2*5*2*1.03 = 2,691.65

Imgur link

B) Damage reduction caused by the boss's armour

The remaining abilities are all affected by the boss's armour, how much Armour Penetration we have, and what kind of armour reduction debuffs said boss has. As I've said in the previous post, I don't know how much armour a heroic dummy has, but I will assume the standard one (10,650) and therefore a damage reduction of 11.7% (or 88.3% damage applied modifier).

C) Flat damage-based abilities (AA, Mangle, Maul)

For the remaining abilities, there isn't a clear formula in evowow which I can show right now. This is what's mentioned there:

https://i.imgur.com/9PdGwLe.png

https://i.imgur.com/hmOP9yE.png

Sources: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48564, https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=48480

However, the damage of those abilities is based on our weapon damage, aka our paw damage which is based on this formula:

Quote:

paw damage = (AP/14 + 54.8)*2.5

This time around I added the 2.5 multiplier because this is the original unmodified attack speed in bear form. So, let's begin with our white attacks. Their damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48412, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

bear AA (non-crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*Naturalist*Master Shapeshifter*2.5 (unmodified weapon speed)
bear AA (non-crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*2.86
bear AA (glancing) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*2.145
bear AA (crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8)*5.8916

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

bear AA (non-crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*2.86*0.883 = 1,625.3
bear AA (glancing, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*2.145*0.883 = 1,218.97
bear AA (crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*5.8916*0.883 = 3,348.11

Imgur link

These values are quite similar to the damage shown on the screenshots.

Moving onto Mangle. Its tooltip states "115% normal damage plus 299" however its damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16999, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48412, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Mangle bear (non-crit) = (((AP/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*Naturalist*Savage Fury*Master Shapeshifter*2.5 (unmodified weapon speed)
Mangle bear (non-crit) = (((AP/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*3.432
Mangle bear (crit) = (((AP/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*7.06992

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Mangle bear (non-crit, reduced by armour) = (((8243/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*3.432*0.883 = 2,605.35
Mangle bear (crit, reduced by armour) = (((8243/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*7.06992*0.883 = 5,367.03

Imgur link

These values are quite similar to the damage shown on the screenshot.

Finally, we have Maul. Its tooltip states "strong attack that increases melee damage by 578" however its damage is further increased by the following multipliers - https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48564, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=51269, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=17073, https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=48412, and https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=41398 in case of a critical strike. This is why I wrote the following formula in the guide:

Quote:

Maul (non-crit) = ((AP/14)+54.8+231.2)*Naturalist*Mangle*R&T*Master Shapeshifter*2.5 (unmodified weapon speed)
Maul (non-crit) = ((AP/14)+286)*4.1184
Maul (crit) = ((AP/14)+286)*8.483904

Let's see how accurate this formula is. If I were to replace "AP" with my current one in the formula above, I would get:

Quote:

Maul (non-crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+286)*4.4616*0.883 = 3,446.3
Maul (crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+286)*9.190896*0.883 = 7,099.38

Imgur link

Now, the calculated damage above vastly differs from the in-game one. This is the time I want to mention that I don't know how exactly Maul is scripted, BUT this doesn't matter because for most of my calculations in the past I used values from Rawr, which I'll talk about right now.
II. Does Rawr accurately calculate the damage of our abilities?

To better check the situation with Rawr, I created the same build as my feral cat w/o any raid buffs:

https://i.imgur.com/PJKze6W.png

To remove all kinds of RNG, I removed both trinkets and the Berserking enchant, but I added 351 in one of the items, so that I can retain my passive Arp stat boost. I also removed the idol because I didn't use it in-game. I also removed the proc effect from the rep ring, so that the AP could remain 8243. These are the calculated values by Rawr:

Quote:

AA (hit) - 1682
AA (average) - 2548

Mangle (hit) - 2696
Mangle (average) - 4279

Maul (hit) - 4279
Maul (average) - 6792

Lacerate DoT Tick (hit) - 1307
Lacerate DoT Tick (average) - 2074

A) Lacerate

I'll start with Lacerate once again because bleed abilities are easy to calculate and check. Rawr shows 1307 for one non-critical tick and 2074 (on average for someone with 57.86% crit chance). If I have to redo my calculations, they would look like so:

Quote:

Lacerate (DoT, hit, 5-stack) = (64 + 8243*0.01)*1.04*1.1*1.3*1.2*5 = 1,306.62
Lacerate (DoT, crit, 5-stack) = (64 + 8243*0.01)*1.04*1.1*1.3*1.2*5*2*1.03 = 2,691.65

Lacerate (DoT, average, 5-stack) = 1,306.62*(1-0.5786) + 2,691.65*(0.5786) = 2,108

Admittedly, the damage is slightly off from the one shown by Rawr, but it's quite similar still. VVhile I'm still on the topic of Lacerate, please note that I didn't add the 15% multiplier from https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=5229. This means that Rawr doesn't consider it in its calculations. It's not important now, but it will become relevant once I get to the feral simcraft.

B) AA

In the previous subsection, I estimated 1,625.3 damage for the "hit" AA, 1,218.97 damage for the "glancing" AA, and 3,348.11 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 1682 for the non-critical strike and 2548 (on average for someone with 57.86% crit chance). If I have to redo my calculations, they would look like so:

Quote:

bear AA (non-crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*2.86*0.883 = 1,625.3
bear AA (glancing, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*2.145*0.883 = 1,218.97
bear AA (crit, reduced by armour) = ((8243/14)+54.8)*5.8916*0.883 = 3,348.11

AA (average, reduced by armour) = 3,348.11*(0.5786) + 1,218.97*(0.24) + (1-0.24-0.5786)*1,625.3 = 2,524.6

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

C) Mangle

In the previous subsection, I estimated 2,605.35 damage for the non-critical Mangle and 5,367.03 for the critical strike. Rawr shows 2696 for the non-critical strike and 4279 (on average for someone with 57.86% crit chance). If I have to redo my calculations, they would look like so:

Quote:

Mangle bear (non-crit, reduced by armour) = (((8243/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*3.432*0.883 = 2,605.35
Mangle bear (crit, reduced by armour) = (((8243/14)+54.8)*1.15+119.6)*7.06992*0.883 = 5,367.03

Mangle bear (average, reduced by armour) = 2,605.35*(1-0.5786) + 5,367.03*(0.5786) = 4,203.26

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

D) Maul

I'm not going to post my previous calculations, however I will use the in-game values of Maul, i.e. 4137 damage for the non-critical strike and 8410 for the critical. Rawr shows 4279 for the non-critical strike and 6792 (on average for someone with 57.86% crit chance). If I have to calculate the average amount with the in-game values, the damage would look like this:

Quote:

Maul (average, reduced by armour) = 4137*(1-0.5786) + 8410*(0.5786) = 6,609.36

Admittedly, the program shows slightly higher numbers for this ability, but the damage is quite similar still.

Rawr shows slightly higher numbers for the Arp-based abilities, but overall the damage is quite similar to what we get in-game. Therefore, this program can be used. What about the VVrath Classic simcraft?
III. Does the feral simcraft accurately calculate the damage of our abilities?

Before I continue, I want to mention that I used the old version of the feral simcraft for this experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiKUey5jH08

https://i.imgur.com/PgyEfc1.png

The first thing which will become apparent is that the average damage of the bear abilities is higher than the one calculated by me and Rawr, but this is because the simcraft acknowledges the 15% multiplier from Enrage. This is why I want to talk about each ability individually.

A) AA

According to the feral simcraft (Imgur link), a regular "hit" AA would deal 1675 damage, a glancing blow would deal around 1274, and a critical strike would deal whopping 3870 damage. In comparison to my previous estimations, the hit and the glancing blows are almost the same, but the critical strike vastly differs for some reason.

B) Mangle

According to the feral simcraft (Imgur link), a non-critical Mangle would deal around 2679 damage, whereas a critical strike would deal around 5573 damage. If I have to calculate the average amount for someone with 57.86% crit chance, the damage would look like this:

Quote:

Mangle (average) = 2679*(1-0.5786) + 5573*(0.5786) = 4,353.47

This is quite similar to what Rawr shows (i.e. 2696 for the non-critical ability and 4279 on average).

C) Maul

According to the feral simcraft (Imgur link), a non-critical Maul would deal around 4279 damage, whereas a critical strike would deal around 8834 damage. If I have to calculate the average amount for someone with 57.86% crit chance, the damage would look like this:

Quote:

Mangle (average) = 4279*(1-0.5786) + 8834*(0.5786) = 6,914.52

This is quite similar to what Rawr shows (i.e. 4279 for the non-critical ability and 6792 on average).

D) Lacerate

According to the feral simcraft (Imgur link), a non-critical Lacerate tick would deal around 1543 damage, whereas a critical strike would deal around 3179 damage. If I have to calculate the average amount for someone with 57.86% crit chance, the damage would look like this:

Quote:

Mangle (average) = 1543*(1-0.5786) + 3179*(0.5786) = 2,489.59

This is not what Rawr shows (1307 for the non-critical tick and 2074 on average). As explained in the second subsection, Rawr correctly calculates the damage of Lacerate which can be proven in-game (with the same amount of AP). However, the simcraft shows different numbers.

The feral simcraft only shows similar numbers regarding Mangle and Maul. For Lacerate and the critical bear AA, it shows higher numbers.
IV. Conclusions

Unfortunately, the simcraft is not as accurate as one would hope regarding bearweaving (on warmane). VVhile it correctly displays the majority of the bear abilities - AA (hit), AA (glancing), Mangle, and Maul - it gives higher numbers for the critical AAs and Lacerate. I want to mention that I tried finding other versions of the simcraft with more accurate results but all of them featured these evaluations.

- Does this mean that we shouldn't use the simcraft anymore?
- Doch, it can and should be used.

As I've explained in the previous post, the simcraft correctly calculates all cat abilities. Therefore, it can be used for checking all kinds of stuff concerning the traditional cat playstyle and the GotVV-shift. I also recommend it for bearweaving because this is a convenient tool for the average warmane player to see what they can expect from this playstyle, though it should be used with a grain of salt especially when it comes to Lacerateweaving. For more precise calculations, I recommend using Rawr.

- Is bearweaving still worth it on warmane?
- In the early game, yes. I don't recommend it for the endgame except maybe sequencing Maul-Mangle-Maul.

I mean, I analysed bearweaving in the past (in a very convoluted way), but I too was convinced that using bear abilities whilst pooling energy is better than simply AA-ing in cat form. After all, going bear and casting Mangle saves us 40 energy which can be invested in Shred. Furthermore, a single Maul (6792) deals more damage than 2.5 cat AAs (2548 * 2.5 = 6,370), and if you go bear into Maul-Mangle-Maul with Enrage you will inflict only the strongest bear abilities and even increase their damage by 15%. Therefore, bearweaving is not just a Classic thing, it's part of the 3.3.5 patch.

The question is whether Lacerateweaving is still worth it, and my answer remains "yes", but only in the early game because our Arp is low, and with Naxx gear Lacerate also receives an additional multiplier (https://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=60141). Moreover, with Naxx and pre-Naxx gear finding the opportunity to inflict a FB is not always possible, so if you are skipping on FB anyway, you can use the opportunity to Lacerateweave between Rip and SR cycles. In the endgame, though, I only recommend the GotVV-shift in its current form and Maul-Mangle-Maul for parsing.

To be fair, I've said this in the past as well. Lacerateweaving as a playstyle is really clumsy and makes the cat player less flexible in unfortunate situations. The GotVV-shift, on the other hand, gives us burst on demand and helps us maintain SR and Rip more easily.

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In defense of my previous claims about bearweaving:

Ok, so I've established that the feral simcraft calculates Lacerate higher than normal (at least as far as warmane/patch 3.3.5 is concerned). If I want to have more precise numbers, I need to lower Lacerate by X%. For this task, I will refer to the numbers above (1543 tick damage according to the feral simcraft vs 1307 according to Rawr) where the difference is 18%. So, I sim Lacerateweaving as usual, but I lower the estimated DPS for this ability by 18%.

This is what I do in this clip (though I used 15%):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RrHFa8CX48
(please skip to 1:45)

As you can see, Lacerateweaving underperformed in comparison to the GotVV-shift with the "stopattack" command. However, let's observe the situation with Naxx gear. According to Rawr, a single Lacerate tick would inflict 976 damage on hit, whereas the feral simcraft evaluates it at 1084 damage (imgur link). This means that the difference is only 11% this time around. In the following clip, you will see that Lacerateweaving provides the most amount of damage for a feral cat with Naxx gear, even with the nerfed values:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIy7EXttxHQ
(please skip to 1:50)

This solidifies the argument that bearweaving is not just a Classic thing, it's part of the 3.3.5 patch.

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