LoD Guilds Exploits

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Originally Posted by Kasumii

Actually that's not entirely true. It's not hard to map out a raid schedule by referencing forums or a guild website to find their raid times.
If there's too much to watch at once, then schedule someone to spectate at the raid time of the suspected guild. Keeps from wasting time and resources trying to watch random raids.

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Not hard at all, most if not all guilds have consistent raid times, GM's can just join guilds and check the GMOTDs for info about raids too.

Exploiting has been done by a multitude of guilds for the past several years. Bans used to occur from time to time but they didn't seem consistent or fair at times, likely due to the sensitive nature of the subject where 1 person may or may have not gotten a whole raid banned over an ordeal.

After the bugfixes (now, now, let's not get our hopes up shall we..) hit, it'd do the staff some good to set possible rules up pertaining how bans for raids and individual raid members are handled, as in the past we've seen whole raids getting banned over X action player Y commited unknownst to the rest of the raid.

Consisteny is key to succes.

Or even better, if the proof is layed out right infront of you, like a stream on what happend I dont se any reason not to do anything.
May I remind you that people who cant even play the game because of some buggs post tickets that isnt even awnsered within a really long time,keeping them from playing the game.

Now should they prio helping people actually play this game or focus everything into finding exploiters in raids, There is quite alot tickets that can be awnsered and fixed for people during that time it takes to observe a raid.

Priorities, Putting all effort into fixing it all with a new core may even sound better does it?
There's so many things to be done still, you cant expect Gm's to take care of everything at once.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

Or even better, if the proof is layed out right infront of you, like a stream on what happend I dont se any reason not to do anything.
May I remind you that people who cant even play the game because of some buggs post tickets that isnt even awnsered within a really long time,keeping them from playing the game.

Now should they prio helping people actually play this game or focus everything into finding exploiters in raids, There is quite alot tickets that can be awnsered and fixed for people during that time it takes to observe a raid.

Priorities, Putting all effort into fixing it all with a new core may even sound better does it?
There's so many things to be done still, you cant expect Gm's to take care of everything at once.

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Priorities - No doubt. But if someone stomps the proof in your face proving the point that X or Y exploited, actions have to be made. Yet, so far, they have been ignored and notified as that they would be patched with the new core. Until there you know what that means?

That all of my effort to do the fights without exploits is in vein since you can just go there, HoJ Lich King the whole fight, kite it around like a fool and see the tank not even getting any kind of damage while the raid melts Lich King. I agree with you 100% that priorities must exist like everything in life - But when someone shows up with a serious issue that requires an immediate solution to serve as an example and you don't do anything that just means you're opening a door for other people to use that same exploit 'cause the ideology that is generated is: "Nothing will happen to me - This other guild/guy did it and they didn't get punished!".

Waiting for the Lordaeron core could be a possible solution if it would be an instant solution. But it's not. It's a solution that needs time to be implemented. With this said; You're just giving time to other people abuse the mechanical errors, the scripting errors, however you prefer, to farm their achievements and get the BiS gear that every single player desires. Fair advantage? I don't think so.

I have wiped my raids over less to stop the bs that they try an then g kick them.

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Originally Posted by blazenhellion

I have wiped my raids over less to stop the bs that they try an then g kick them.

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come on stop acting like your raid have never exploited intentionally or not. tha's why i called you ppl with double moral.
You just CAN'T track warriors using HoP exploits.

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Originally Posted by dotafury

jajaja



come on stop acting like your raid have never exploited intentionally or not. tha's why i called you ppl with double moral.
You just CAN'T track warriors using HoP exploits.

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Oh yes you can. Just tested the values with a BiS warrior and I can LITERALLY track those warriors. I can literally notice by the numbers they're pulling and damage of the "standalone" crits to be sure they're exploiting. Also made a video with other bugs on Warriors to track them on the bug tracker. Want me to also give you a percentage value of the damage increase for every single existing exploit that I've faced?

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Originally Posted by dotafury

come on stop acting like your raid have never exploited intentionally or not. tha's why i called you ppl with double moral.
You just CAN'T track warriors using HoP exploits.

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This is a good example of missing the point.
We're talking about continued intentional abuse, not people who may or may not have done something without even knowing.

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Originally Posted by dotafury

i called you ppl with double moral. You just CAN'T track warriors using HoP exploits.

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Why are you raising this point? What does this point have to do with GM staff handling of exploiters and the reprimands they receive?

How does calling out those with double morals help contribute to the discussion in regards to why this keeps happening?

How about consistency? What does double morals have to do with consistenty for the way rules are handled? You realize this impacts anyone posting here who is showing "double morals" so if you're that eager to call em out why not let them get punished in their own way since you seem to be so sure the people posting here have all exploited before.

If none of this crossed your mind or can be answered in your response then perhaps it is as Sixtyninee said: "you're missing the point".

Right, so I just wanted to give you guys two existential truths regarding the whole "ban the entire guild for 1 person" thing.

In a war the soldiers are just as faulty as their general, even if they don't know what the ultimate goal/strategy is.

Not knowing does not mean not bearing responsibility.

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Originally Posted by taralej

Right, so I just wanted to give you guys two existential truths regarding the whole "ban the entire guild for 1 person" thing.

In a war the soldiers are just as faulty as their general, even if they don't know what the ultimate goal/strategy is.

Not knowing does not mean not bearing responsibility.

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If this happens all guilds will get bans and the server will die.I've been in many good guilds in the past and in everyone of them i've seen pple who have exploited/hacked the game to get better results.Doesnt matter how good is this guild or how strong they are trying to use ratail way- they all have cheaters in them.

Don't let the hilarious amount of bias some of you have against a guild in discussion here stop you from making horrendous arguments with poorly thought out trains of logic. Some of you must be frothing at the mouth to see Aurora banned, it's really sad.

The only way to catch guilds/raids is via live monitoring or unless they are caught in videos/live streams. However, if a guild is going to cheat, they would NOT post videos or stream(or else they'd be dumb? :D). So how do we catch guilds/raids that do not have evidence or proof for us to grab? We can't...

Nah let's think again about this. How do we catch guilds that exploit/abuse without them streaming or having videos??? We just can't can we? I mean, if I sneak into icc I'm sure I won't be able to see them there since it'll be a different ID right? :( Sad.

At the same time, it is not a requirement for videos/streams to be present to validate a guilds legitimacy(I don't see that anywhere in the policy unless I'm blind).

I believe warmane does not have enough staff to continuously live monitor raids that happen especially nowadays since A LOT of guilds/raids are doing LK25H. If I were a GM, I would see when guilds raid and try to be online when they do so to monitor a bit.

But I've also been thinking of something else....what if warmane had a system in place that was like World of Logs. In that way, every single LK kill would be recorded in the logs and they would be able to see if [Judgement of Justice] was used in the encounters. Brilliant aye? I don't know if it's possible but it would surely help since live monitoring won't be able to cover every raid.

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Originally Posted by bosanov

If this happens all guilds will get bans and the server will die.I've been in many good guilds in the past and in everyone of them i've seen pple who have exploited/hacked the game to get better results.Doesnt matter how good is this guild or how strong they are trying to use ratail way- they all have cheaters in them.

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Nah, if guilds are banned for 10-20 days, that's nothing! It won't prevent them from coming back and it would be a good warning for them not to do it again. Guilds might die only if the ban is 30 days+.

The best way to do this is staff monitoring with GMs observing raids. In order for this to happen, however, Warmane will have to get a lot of GMs and they'll be focused primarily on researching exploits and observing guild raids, with strict focus on the top guilds because they're the ones competing for top achievements but also keeping an eye on growing guilds as well.

Overall, the notion that some exploits are part of the server; that PP should be done while grouped and with at least 2 paladins to HoP red ooze targets and other things like that should be rooted out from the behavior of the players. These things are NOT part of the game, this is NOT how the game is supposed to be; how the raid is supposed to be done. Doing these things intentionally is exploiting, and that's just bad and pathetic. That's the thing most players don't get - you're NOT making yourself look better if you've found a way to exploit an encounter and do it easily, on the contrary - if you're not reporting this and working towards removing it, you're just pathetic. No, you're not a pro, you're not some prodigal mastermind who found a loophole. Plain simple pathetic - "haaa-haaa, look what I can do, now we can get this boss before you". Do you see how low this sounds?

Banning guilds for a week on their first fault seems reasonable enough for me. After that they'll be under surveillance and they'll either stop, or face a longer ban.

And before someone says "why so serious" - Warmane is the biggest private server out there, its population easily covers several retail realms as it is. We're not talking about some random private server with one realm with barely 1k population here. We're talking about hundreds of people supporting the server financially through donations or morally like us here, and thousands of people playing on this server every day. And with Lordaeron's launch there were a lot of newcomers - people coming from retail, people who have never tried WotLK, even people who have never tried WoW before. Is this what we want them to see?

A: bubblestorm when red oze comes u hop first
B: hop?
A: ye hop hand of protection
B: who should i hop?
C: oh god hes a noob, kick him
A: u dont know the tactics for PP?
B: yeah i know them perfectly, i've done PP many times on retail. why is ranged stacking btw?
C: lol just kck him

Maybe wipe LoD achievement, perhaps some more when Lordaeron core comes into play and hope there will be no such exploits in the new core. I doubt any GM would even consider live monitoring raids, it just feels like a waste of persons time, they have a lot of other stuff to do, hiring a guy for this specific duty would be just funny. There is no other efficient way to track raids.

If some mechanic is broken, there will always be exploiters.

You can't do anything about it unless you can fix the broken mechanic yourself.

So your best bet is to keep reporting with proof of broken mechanics, and hope that in some (near) future it may be fixed. Which I seriously doubt will have much priority for bugs and exploits that have been around for years, and they have even shaped "Molten-specific" tactics. Tactics that mostly every guild uses for their "content on farm". Simply because they're what's available to them.

Would you blame someone if he takes some money that lie around on the street? No. You'll only accuse him if he steals these same money from a bank (or w/e) that has taken serious preventive measures and the act gets well enough documented.