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I also have been messing around on the play test server and x5 makes a big difference depending on your level.
At 1-5 I was dinging just from killing a single mob. At 9 it would take something like 15 mobs to level. So it has been rapidly slowing down at higher levels. I will see about continuing to test it at higher levels, but I imagine at 30+ the 5x rates won't seem like a very big deal. However, at the lower levels I have tested it is far too fast.
server/marketplace-wise pov:
slow rates will give more value to characters on trade specially the attunements in vanilla and tbc as well as the reputations in wotlk phase but will have higher chances to have more bots since rates and bots might have correlation, it will be ****ty seeing bots roam around during leveling.
faster rates will make the characters have less value on trade and bots would probably just focus on farming materials for gold, so probably less leveling bots.
player-wise pov:
both slow and fast rates have their own great benefits and its hard to tell which one is better since players have various preferences, may also have to consider if the realm would be like seasonal and merged with icecrown at the end or gonna be separated entirely.
So is everyone's strat to get to level 60 as fast as possible and then work on crafting? I mean, yeah, you level fast on 5x but your gonna need gear eventually and have to stop to smell the roses to grind that up.
I remember playing Classic and someone new I met was trying to tell me they didn't like Rogue anymore because they kept dying. Come to find out, they barely had anything on above level 5-8 and never got into crafting.
Don't get too excited, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by LicheLorde2
I for one am a strong proponent of letting players have the choices and decide themselves how they play individually, as well as the general direction of the server. On the very opposite end of Arbiterone, "don't like it, don't use it" is the way to go for me - and others. It's the slippery slope fallacy involved in using "it could justify something absurd such as a .kill button for everyone" as an example that I abhor instead.
I believe in player agency and their capability of making their own choices for how they want to play the game, be it choosing what they prefer or picking to go with the herd, if that's what they prioritize. It's "live and let live," or in the case "play and let play." And if someone truly feels "forced" to use something they don't want to, unable to play the way they want by some perceived peer pressure that isn't really there... well, that's a much deeper issue than a choice in a video game, and not something that should be accounted for in the decisions.
There's no such thing as "handicapping yourself" by playing the game in the way you will have fun. It only becomes a factor if you aren't content in playing the way you prefer, but want everyone else to also play the way you prefer because, in a typical "want to have your cake and eat it too" scenario, you at the same time want to go at a slow pace and not fall behind the others.
And that, right there, is where "dictating how other players play" comes into the picture. You want the "state of the world" to cater to you, not just how you play the game yourself. People having options means few might care to play your way, and that's the real "issue." Unlike people who would choose a higher rate and won't care if you play at x1 or x0.5 or even turn xp gains off, you don't want to just play your way, you want everyone else to also play your way.
On the opposite end of this odd "Vanilla is about leveling" which is chanted like a religious hymn by some, a lot of people do prefer to get the leveling out of the way first, and then go back do whatever, yes. Especially people who aren't new to the content and don't care to do it all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartzPGH
Let's also not forget that this is not a Vanilla server. Vanilla is just the first step, one that will be left behind eventually.
Another analogy. RDF. Easy, convenient fix. People can use it to quickly make groups and instawarp into dungeons. Don't like it, don't use it.
The problem is RDF affects the world. Without RDF, people have to physically travel to the instances, which adds many more people to the world and many more PvP opportunities. I remember fondly battles outside instances in classic, or having to hide from an enemy raid group thundering past my location. All this vanishes once you add in RDF -- people just stay in cities and warp in and out of the dungeons.
So it isn't a matter of choosing to use a feature or not, these features have significant affects on the game world. Like RDF, higher xp rates mean people spend less time leveling and thus there will be fewer people in zones, and there are fewer people running dungeons as they level out of them more quickly. It's the affect on the game world that is the major issue, not merely how long it takes one to get to 60.
As I said before, you are always dictating how people play. You are either dictating a classic slow leveling experience, with a more active world population, or a modified faster leveling experience catering more to end game content. Which ever option you chose, some people will not be able to play as they like.
RDF only "affects the world" if people choose to use it. If the majority of people think like you do, they won't use RDF and will go for the "Vanilla experience" (albeit without paying the Vanilla subscription fee which was part of the experience, of course). If the majority do use RDF it just means they don't want to play the way that you do, and the only way for what you want to happen is if you dictate how they should play the game.
You are twisting what giving choice is about because the consequences of people choosing don't suit what you want. I'd bet my spare liver that if you were sure that giving people choice would ensure the server would be x1 you would be up in arms defending choice in every thread about it.
The problem isn't giving choice, it's that you know the majority won't choose what you want them to if they are allowed to and, again, you aren't satisfied playing at your pace, you want them to also be at your pace.
If you look at the official classic servers, they are almost all 90% one faction. The players chose to do this, so it must be how they wanted to play right?
Not at all. Here's how it happened. No one wants to be severely disadvantaged. If one faction is ahead by a bit, that's all well and good, but once it gets to be a significant margin (couldn't tell you exactly, but probably above 60%) a tipping point is reached, people feel they've gotten a rotten deal, and the lower population faction leaves en masse.
How something like RDF forcibly changes the environment is at first only some people will use it. But this splits the player base. Now there are fewer people to manually set up groups. People get frustrated and a few will peel off and go to RDF. Eventually a tipping point is reached, like with the factions, and everyone shifts over to one side (RDF in this case).
This is simply human behavior and all the more so in a game as min-max as WoW.
Yes, like I said, if people are given the choice they won't do what you want, so you don't want them to have the choice. You didn't need to confirm it.
Even if your example is crooked - faction imabalance, especially in a PvP server, has a whole different impact - that still applies.
RDF doesn't forcibly do anything. It offers an option. If people agreed with you, they would simply ignore it en masse. But, yet again (wonder if I can get AI to repeat myself for me), you simply know that's not what will happen, therefore you wish you could dictate how everyone plays.
And before we take another spin in this broken record, no, the presence of options doesn't dictate how you play. You yourself can play how you want, until that conflicts with how others want to play. You are completely free to still seek out whoever else might want to play like you do, you just won't get to have that style forced on those who don't want it. And if there's only a handful who want to stick with that, why should the server as a whole cater to those? It's as absurd as if twinks came complain that "people are leveling past 19" and that ruins whatever brand of rose-tinted glasses they are wearing and calling "essence," so the server can't have the option to go to level 20 or "everyone will do it."
Yeah I don't know where all this hostility comes from.
If you read above, I was coming around to x2 and x3 speed and even x5 at higher levels. That's not my ideal way to play at all, but it was looking like it would still maintain the spirit of vanilla at least somewhat even at those speeds. The idea that I am some grumpy old man who is intolerant of any changes and exists only to ruin everyone's fun is patently ridiculous.
However, the thing is there is a reason that there is such a thing as retail and classic WoW. The very changes you are proposing are partly what contributed to making modern WoW a very different beast than it was originally. Add in too many modern features, and there really isn't a reason you shouldn't just play retail.
A key aspect of game design is that players will do whatever it takes to give them an edge, even if they actually hate the process or it has a deleterious effect on the game as a whole. It is the job of the game designer to monitor this process and disallow certain abilities or features that have a negative affect on the overall world. That's why there are such things as nerfs and buffs, as most players will choose to only use the tools, classes, or abilities that give them an advantage, and ignore those that do not.
After all, the majority "chose" to make retail WoW what it is today, yet it is an almost unanimous opinion that the more recent versions of WoW are vastly inferior to the first three releases.
Oh no, I don't think you're old, not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by LicheLorde2
The very changes we are implementing - aside higher rates, which aren't in "modern WoW" and just come from over a decade of experience in knowing what makes a long-term successful server - come from WotLK, which is generally considered the peak of the game. Also, no majority choose to implement increasingly bad mechanics meant to keep players in a hamster wheel for as long as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by LicheLorde2
And here we go again... there's nothing "deleterious" about high rates. We have had many servers to prove that. We get new players daily, even the release of "Classic" versions didn't shake us. It's only "deleterious" because it doesn't suit you. I also suppose I have more faith in players than you. Or I just don't measure my fun by the rest of a server, having a small group to play with my way being sufficient. Either way I know for a fact that not all players are "sweaty tryhards" who do anything for that extra fraction of a percent of an edge. The vast majority of players are the casuals, the ones who don't care one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by LicheLorde2
Anything thats not x1 breaks level progression, all the zones are designed with x1 in mind. With x5 experience you will be done with entire zones within minutes without having to complete even 1/10 of the quests available. In vanilla leveling is half the experience, x5 exp will completely skip that. If you guys seem to dislike half the game so much, why not just have everyone start with level 60 characters? How can you even call it "vanilla" when you will have RDF and duel-specs too? I really dont see the point of starting a "vanilla" server when you apparently hate vanilla.
For me? Because I believe characters should have a time investment. I don't agree that time investment should be a week or more of /played, but I do think there should be a level of investment involved beyond figuring out a name that hasn't been taken already. With the time to get to level 60 (when someone is pushing to do so, but isn't at a world-first pace) is 140-150 hours at the low end (I'm getting those numbers from recent HC runs that were in the top 50ish to reach 60, btw, so I feel between being top 50 being "fast", and HC slowing them down, that it's a reasonably accurate figure)...yes, I think increasing rates to reduce that is appropriate. Especially for a "seasonal" server that's meant to quickly progress through content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildzide
I think the possibility of changing talents from classics to Wotlk would be a great idea. Whoever wants to play with old talents will simply change them, and x10 rates will not be a bad decision.
Lol, join the club. This is a common sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildzide
For me though, those these features aren't *necessarily* the problem, so long as the vanilla feel is maintained. What I miss from classic/vanilla is a sense of the world being active and alive. Before RDF was implemented, the roads were busy with players traveling to instances. Areas like Scarlet Monastery were swarming with players and PvP was common. Further, high level alliance players would frequently escort low level players to the monastery all the way from Southshore and were a tempting target for horde players. Once again, all this made the world feel very much alive.
The issue isn't so much with leveling speed or whether or not RFD is allowed, it is this feeling of being a part of a living breathing world that is the appeal of classic WoW. So while I prefer a slower leveling speed because it makes levels have more significance and sense of accomplishment, ultimately what I am concerned about is whether the world will be alive in the way it was in classic and vanilla. Unfortunately from what I have observed, fast leveling and RDF are the major culprits in killing this in later versions of WoW.
That said I feel that x2 speed or even x3 speed are fine, because the x2 rested bonus is already worked into the original game, so it isn't *that* much of a deviation, and I was even coming around to x5 speed at the highest levels as roughly 45-60 was a real slog. However, the truly bizarre series of insults and attacks I have gotten from moderator Obnoxious (an apt handle) for simply wanting a vanilla wow server to at least *kind of* be like vanilla has convinced me there's not a chance in hell of this happening.
Shame, I was starting to look forward to this new server, but it looks like this one is just going to be retail WoW wearing a vanilla skin suit.
unless this isnt vanilla project to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by LicheLorde2