Why everybody doesn't like protection warriors?

not speaking for endgame raids, but the best tps is revenge spamming arms warrior, keep some trash alive to be sure you have revenge available at every gcd. As i said, not for endgame raids. Just to be sure I'll say it again, I'm not speaking about endgame raiding.

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

I was curious enough to do a test on that with a friend, since that's the next best thing to simcraft charts. We took a (roughly) max-TPS specced Bear and Blood DK to Patchwerk 10 man for a threat race, with a Holy Pally keeping us up.

The DK provided 20% melee haste, 10% AP, and Horn of Winter, whereas the Bear provided MotW, Mangle for himself, and 5% melee crit. The Holy Pally Gbom'd both of them, and the 8% Kings drums were used.

Overall, the main things we were missing were:

1) 20% Armor Reduction, Savage Combat, Curse of Elements, Sanctified Retribution, Heart of the Crusader. The former two amount to something like 12-13% more physical damage, so between those two and Curse of Ele both tanks have their damage reduced across the board by almost 13%. Technically Bear threat is reduced slightly less by this due to Lacerate's bleed not needing the Armor reduction buff, and due to how some of their inherent bonus threat amounts work.

2) 3% minor Haste, and BL, the loss of which hurt the Bear more due to how Maul works.

3) 5% spell crit, 5% spell crit debuff, 3% spell hit chance, and Crypt Fever, the loss of which hurt the DK more, even if he had 5/5 Killing Machine.

So in terms of the buffs we missed, the DK was set back more, but not nearly by any kind of significant margin. And the results were more or less in line with what you'd expect. The DK established an early and really high threat lead initially, but the Bear would catch up over time (this took about 1 min 30 seconds) and finish either right on par with the DK, or with slightly more threat than him. This happened both times we did the threat race. Each race lasted 6 mins, because that's when the enrage killed us.

Some other notes:
- The Bear wasn't using Demo Roar so as to take more damage and maximize his rage income, which resulted in saving 1 gcd every 30 or so seconds and being able to use it for threat.
- The DK was using Hysteria on himself since it was a threat race, something which he wouldn't have done in an actual raid.
- The DK's rotation was executed with maximizing threat in mind, so he used the absolute bare minimum amount of Death Strikes.
- The bear was specced 3/3 Improved Mangle and had Mangle glyphed, things he likely wouldn't have in a raid.
- The boss' 0.9 swing speed, as well as the lack of the 20% dodge debuff, meant that Rune Strike had significantly higher availability uptime for the DK than it would on something like LoD.

Bringing all this back to the point about Warrior off-tanks and Safeguard usage, it stands to reason that you should continue to be mindful of threat as a potential issue even if you're a DK tank. Ultimately, even an Unholy or Frost tank isn't invincible to threat ever presenting an issue if he's spammed with -10% threat reduction every reaper.

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Any actual numbers tho?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=1345&e=1707

Both tanks finished at around 3.69 million threat before wiping to Enrage. All that Bear threat is owed to sheer DPS. Some doubt hangs over the question of how blizzlike damage and threat formulas are right now (I already reported a couple of issues that stood out).

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=1345&e=1707

Both tanks finished at around 3.69 million threat before wiping to Enrage. All that Bear threat is owed to sheer DPS. Some doubt hangs over the question of how blizzlike damage and threat formulas are right now (I already reported a couple of issues that stood out).

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Still no actual threat numbers.

Who would win, a 2700 DPS BiS Blood DK using hysteria on himself with pally and druid buffs or a 6.1k Spicy Touch boi with self buffs and no cds but Blood Tap?

Spoiler: Show

https://imgur.com/L6zH4xC

This guy is doing 300 less DPS and at the same time pulling 100k more threat per minute. Why? Because he's using Icy Touch more. Your DK has 58 combined Icy Touch casts in 6 mins, this guy has 53 at 4 mins, a difference of 4 per minute without even factoring the fact that he didn't use ERW. Icy Touch amounts to 1325575 of your DK's total threat or literally the threat of all of his Rune Strikes, melee attacks, Heart Strikes and Plague Strikes combined. Why isn't he using it more often? Was he afraid of embarrassing the bear too much? Other things of note are the fact that his Icy Touch is averaging 1700 per cast in BiS gear and with pally/druid buffs, when a lower geared, non-buffed DK is averaging 2100, which suggests he didn't maximize his threat properly. Besides that, the DK is also getting shafted by the lack of the only buff he cares about when it comes to threat and that's 13% more spell damage, the lack of which has 0 effect on the bear's threat, while the lack of armor pen affects both.

Best part is that even in spite of all this, the DK is still better at snap threat and equal at sustained threat. Really makes you think, doesn't it? In ICC the difference is even more staggering because a lot of bear threat multipliers are flat numbers that don't scale with the buff, while DKs have the best scaling threat ability in the entire game that you can use at 30 yrds.

The threat numbers can roughly be worked out based on the damage amounts. IT worked out to about 36.9% of his total threat.

I brought up the lack of CoE and spell debuffs - that does hurt the DK more, but we also missed some physical buffs that affect the Bear to almost the same degree the lack of CoE hurt the DK.

I noticed the shortage of IT casts too considering the fight duration, but then decided that to some degree, it's offset by the fact that KM seems to proc drastically more than it should. His ratio of RS to White hits was about 2:1, which means roughly 66% of the KM procs he got shouldn't have occurred. This would've put a dent in the IT damage too, though it's more difficult to ascertain what the overall effect might've been.

But this is all less about working out whose sustained TPS is a bit higher. The main point still stands that whatever lead might exist for a Blood DK, if it does indeed exist, isn't so significant that being spammed with Safeguard wouldn't be an issue. Sure, there are enough threat control tools in the game to manage most people's sustained threat on a single target encounter, like Hand of Salvation and personal threat reduction CDs and whatnot, but that adds another level of complexity into the fight for an ability that's a 6 second, 30% DR. Not only would you have to organize your raid members' threat control better, you might even run into a situation later on during ledge phases where the Salvation or threat reduction CD might happen to be sorely needed, but you don't have it because you spent them on your DPS earlier. As an Affliction Lock, for instance, you often run into a situation where you can't Drain Soul a dying raging because threat on it is really tight, and you can't Soulshatter because you might've used it on a previous Raging Spirit. It's an arduous burden you need to take into account when assessing just how useful being spammed with Safeguard might be.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

In ICC the difference is even more staggering because a lot of bear threat multipliers are flat numbers that don't scale with the buff, while DKs have the best scaling threat ability in the entire game that you can use at 30 yrds.

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Correct, but "staggering" is an exaggeration. If you just threw the 30% dmg buff onto both the tanks, the DK's threat would increase across the board by a perfect 30%, whereas the Bear's threat would increase by a close enough 28.7%-ish.

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

The threat numbers can roughly be worked out based on the damage amounts. IT worked out to about 36.9% of his total threat.

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That's with badly optimized IT, probably wrong spec and sigil. In my case it was 56% of total threat.

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

I brought up the lack of CoE and spell debuffs - that does hurt the DK more, but we also missed some physical buffs that affect the Bear to almost the same degree the lack of CoE hurt the DK.

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It's obviously set up in favor of the bear. Downplaying it as a minor thing is pointless. Not only are all present buffs affecting the bear more but the highest boost to the DK's threat that does nothing for the bear isn't present at all.

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

I noticed the shortage of IT casts too considering the fight duration, but then decided that to some degree, it's offset by the fact that KM seems to proc drastically more than it should. His ratio of RS to White hits was about 2:1, which means roughly 66% of the KM procs he got shouldn't have occurred. This would've put a dent in the IT damage too, though it's more difficult to ascertain what the overall effect might've been.

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There's really not enough information for me to decide if this is even a bug or not. Even if we assume it is, the number of Rune Strikes is going to be significantly lower in ICC.

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Originally Posted by DarkenedHue

But this is all less about working out whose sustained TPS is a bit higher. The main point still stands that whatever lead might exist for a Blood DK, if it does indeed exist, isn't so significant that being spammed with Safeguard wouldn't be an issue. Sure, there are enough threat control tools in the game to manage most people's sustained threat on a single target encounter, like Hand of Salvation and personal threat reduction CDs and whatnot, but that adds another level of complexity into the fight for an ability that's a 6 second, 30% DR. Not only would you have to organize your raid members' threat control better, you might even run into a situation later on during ledge phases where the Salvation or threat reduction CD might happen to be sorely needed, but you don't have it because you spent them on your DPS earlier. As an Affliction Lock, for instance, you often run into a situation where you can't Drain Soul a dying raging because threat on it is really tight, and you can't Soulshatter because you might've used it on a previous Raging Spirit. It's an arduous burden you need to take into account when assessing just how useful being spammed with Safeguard might be.

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Well, it's "a bit" of a difference if you stack the odds against the DK like this and then also have him play suboptimally. It's much more of a difference once you get into ICC and factor every buff and fight mechanic, as well as properly spec for Icy Touch. Every single mechanic where you have to disengage from the boss is just going to make the DK even better at threat because they have range and no ramp time, like on LK transitions. You have to also keep in mind that you're not competing against other tanks when it comes to threat, you're competing with DPS, which makes threat loss much more manageable, particularly in the case of DKs.

Warrior is the worst tank. Warmane needs to do something about it im a 6k prot Warrior with a lot of experience of the Raids and nobody does want to take me just because i am a Warrior. It is frustrating. Maybe a buff on the Warriors (if that is even possible) would do prot warriors viable again.

Which tank is best can be easily calculated. Let the tanks do 1v1 with boss without heals. Surely DK's win all the time. Blood DK can Death Strike his way out for very long. I remember raid wipes where people yell and beg the DK tank to die so they can enter the instance.

Lets be serious. Best tank is the one who master his class. Also the one who can hold aggro easily and doing tons of damage. I hate tanks that are yelling on hunts and rogues, esspecially Blood/Frost hybrids without Hearth Strike. Spamming Icy Touch is the bad way of tanking and I hate DK tanks who do that.

As for warrior, I see nothing wrong on them now. They are really good tanks, viable for anything. I seen Warrior tanks doing lods very proffessional and easy. Its just the kids who play Pala and DK spamming 2 spells and using their CDs when they try warrior they see that they are not that good players of this game.

Remember. 3.35 is the Warrior expansion. Best PVP Arena class. Best PVE DPS. Outstanding prot spec.
Just look at the items on Halion and ICC. All items are for warrior, all Items are with armor penetration. Including shadowmourne

I had quite some fun with tanking ICC trash mobs and 5 man Dungeons as a DPS geared prot warr with 100% Arp.
As long as you keep the aggro so you get those revenge procs you are able to top the dmg charts of the raid.
Tanking in that gear obviously doesn't work in serious boss fights but it's always fun to use that build for ICC trash mobs to troll the "real" tanks of your raid who obviously can't keep up with your threat.

Might be quite interesting to compare the DPS of a dmg geared Prot paly to the one of a Prot warr. I'd assume that the Prot warr wins but Protrets can definitly also deal a **** load of dmg in 5 man Dungeons.

Idk I never had problems getting into raid with prot warrior, everybody accepts me. You have damage, and at bosses + huge amount of mobs you gonna have unlimited rage so just spam heroic strike or cleave. Your aggro will almost never be a problem unless hunter or someone puts their aggro spells on someone else for mistake or troll.

Prot Warriors are fully capable clearing all content. All tanks got their own advantages/disadvantages.

There are good tanks & there are bad tanks. Paladin's are simply more forgiving. One thing I will never agree to is that "paladins got better aoe" - That is so false it gives me chills. Skilled protection warrior can hold any group of mobs.


I've ran some many tests with my guild, on whether or not Warriors are worse - the answer is NO. They aren't. (For the most part)
Just the other day, I proved everyone wrong when my taken damage from Cleave @Marrowgar was 35% less than other tank.

The bottom line is -
Ive been maining as Prot warr for past 7 years. I do weekly ICC25s/10/10hcs (On Lordaeron) just fine. Almost 6k and never had any issues. Got KS25 on prot warrior on Icecrown too.

Prot Warriors got insane utility for the raid if used properly.

However, Druids & DKs surpass both Paladins & Warriors.


PALADINS SUCK! Warriors FTW4EVAH.

Hates go in...
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GO!

So many people here that causes my 200 iq brain to hurt. I can't comprehend their thought processes.

Anyways simple as this

Best tanks
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Dk Main tank or Bear main tank
Paladin off tank

no tank at all
Mage tank
warlock tank
Priest tank
Rogue tank
Just 25 man mage dps the boss before everyone dies
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Then warrior tank

That's how bad warrior tanks are. If you think a warrior tank is good then you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.
Play on lordaeron to see the differences and learn how to get good at the game.
Play on icecrown and enjoy x7 exp, casually downing heroic bosses because icc +30% buff makes the content that easy, and marrowgar only needs an average of about 1300 dps (I did this much dps at lvl 48 on a warrior tank in black rock depths prison) yeah sorry but icc is FAAAAAR too easy on icecrown.

Yes warriors can do the job, no warriors are not good at it, the job is just that easy.

Again, play on lordaeron then try to make a claim

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Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

So many people here that causes my 200 iq brain to hurt. I can't comprehend their thought processes.

Anyways simple as this

Best tanks
-------------------------------
Dk Main tank or Bear main tank
Paladin off tank

no tank at all
Mage tank
warlock tank
Priest tank
Rogue tank
Just 25 man mage dps the boss before everyone dies
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then warrior tank

That's how bad warrior tanks are. If you think a warrior tank is good then you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.
Play on lordaeron to see the differences and learn how to get good at the game.
Play on icecrown and enjoy x7 exp, casually downing heroic bosses because icc +30% buff makes the content that easy, and marrowgar only needs an average of about 1300 dps (I did this much dps at lvl 48 on a warrior tank in black rock depths prison) yeah sorry but icc is FAAAAAR too easy on icecrown.

Yes warriors can do the job, no warriors are not good at it, the job is just that easy.

Again, play on lordaeron then try to make a claim

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Plays on Londaeron where bosses are only buffed on health and enrage timer > then claims it shows your true skills. No it only shows that you freaking need more gear to actually even do some bosses so it requires for you to farm/grind even more before entering just somewhere. That's why I hate londaeron.

And that doesn't show anything to be honest. Any tank can tank anything as long as he's good geared and knows tactics. What you talk about is finding some noobs/dps who got their gear by OS roll or something. Play warrior tank for yourself.

You're telling people to get good and I saw you proclaiming that Arp unholy was ''way better'' than STR unholy, what a joke tbh. Btw playing on lordaeron doesn't make you better, you would get destroyed by the finest players from Icecrown. Lordaeron had back in the day more prepared guilds with way better players IN AVERAGE. If you wanna talk, at least learn the game properly, otherwise stay shut.

They got really really bad threatbuilding