A little more serious discussion about new players & raiding

Ok guys, i was considering starting this for some time, and it will be a little long... so please, if you have an opinion/idea on the topic, read well, without skipping past the 1st paragraph, & share it! It turned in deed Long, but i made sure you will enjoy reading it ;)


So... now, most of us (as server pop) are, players with quite some xp & knowledge in the game and raids, with op gs and stuff... thing is, we all know that to get these, one must start from somewhere (stating from now, directly excluding weapons & trinkets bought from the coin/vote shop). As have each of us walked this path - some of us easier, others with some more rocks on the way... and cliffs, haven't we? Truly, once we settle & get our professions and guild raids going, we can directly buy ourselves some nice boes, and directly venture in the icc, toc, everywhere in fact. However, new players can sometimes be kind of stuck...

Now, one would, as he hits 80th for the first time, ofc first get his flying and explore the whole continent, die a few times to fatigue, if he is a more exploring type - die several more going for ioc on the live map, then if choose the path of raiding - queue rdf, learn about the existence of fos/pos and complete them; look at the ah to see if there are any nice items shared by other players, see the interesting prices of most, yet finding a few cheaper ones that can actually help him/her, do some quests & craft a few items and buy them. All good, but now... what? Ok wait i found an npc from which i can get some items from emblems that is actually cool right got them... oh group for a weekly? this is cool, i really want to see the raids in wotlk! -> 5eot/f, voa? hmmm lets see... and here it gets bad, as one doesnt have 5k+ yet (most pugs go for more in fact lately). So what should i do? Google ... 1) ah items 5-digit number? noty 2) ulduar/toc/icc 5.5k+ mm aint happen 3) queue bg and wintergrasp & get a few honor items - not exactly best, yet to be fine for entering the game - ok probably this is the best thing i can do, i will even see what these are, as no one was in queue while i was following the story of the game... Now lets assume our newbie to be clever and do the best, beside the lower gs, and easily gets the honor points for the missing items. >> VoA, and the hopes for Rng to be generous. Oh well.

That day later, a message in global popped by a player, looking for a player with only 5k gs - icc alt run! Oh cool, <remember new!> i will see icc, the famous lk!, it will be chilly, will be with the "cool" guys on the server (yea sure), ftw... yes i am in the group, it fills in no time & and we are on our way defeating marrow... 4 rektstorms later, he is down; elevetor lady shares his demise, the icc armory is confiscated as well for a good cause. Dbs wipe ofc partly because some of the ppl are already offline. Oh well 3 bosses is yet something, i guess... but yet i couldn't even see the lk ;(( And hey why did the rl get these items? They were kind of nice..

As our hero progresses with the items he has, more and more his will & wish to meet the lk in person grows, and he knows to be clever enough to defeat any single boss, they are in deed so simple, aren't they? Just stay away from the storm as much as it is wise, if ranged out of flames - else stay under him (and don't EVER look up), lady - pff ok why are these ppl with way higher gs dps-ing Dar? Pff good these servants of the shadows are quick and clever enough to mc him so he can stay alive... - 5 eof yey! - armory just alt-tab it is all good, in case everyone has already done it - get in a cannon and shoot for the glory of bronzebeard/sf & get rid of that... ok mate why i cant simply interrupt you?..; if we go on dbs, jsut use that long-forgotten dusty cc i have in my spellbook and kill the minions asap... wait who are fes & rot? bpc is a council fight, hmm probably 3 bosses, starting with b, p and c?.. Ok we all laughed well i believe, however i'm afraid it is time to get serious here - for, i think, we all see now what is going on around clearly.

In this moment, many people would suggest finding a guild - a thing simple for some of us (mostly ones with 284 weapon), like if you have a nice nationality one - in my case, i saw the one called "Kingdom of Heaven" and was like (^.^), got on a forum article listing the census stats & saw it is a rather active one... then, i found it is a nationality (mine) one. Of course, went for it asap, if not to get in raids, to see what exactly a guild is like from inside - it actually turned out it is rather the contrary of its name xx, but anyway, saw what it is alike.. These were its final days.. Then i pmed with another player, who turned out to be a g leader (not talking about official or single one! - see from here it was a rather good one), and actually had some nice moments there, though i couldn't do much with them with the kind of parents i have - hint: they are people who have done really bad things - things that don't have to be officially crimes.. and with time, they started to realize it. Yet, there were some days in which i was free (and i never know in advance), and, though my brain flew away for a moment, actually got on a main run somehow - with my rather interesting items xd Get rekt lk. As i am a huge fantasy fan, my imagination is one of my greatest things ;-; needless to say i overreacted, is it? xD

Now let's step down from my point of view.. Things got rather well here, but... how does the average wow player look like? The ones who are playing more for the game, not for doing stuff hardcore - as we are well aware, many of us are rather... shy. So, joining a guild is actually a problem, though a very strange one for anyone who has no problems in this; others - simply can't play much in the evenings (any time most guilds do compared to the server clock), nor - being able to set a fixed time to raid (or even wanting to). And don't have a national guild - a little like a foreigner in the world of warcraft... getting worse, whose path, if he wants to get better items, is mostly by grind... well... until he simply decides to watch the youtube videos for the fights and to seize a rather silly incarnation of the grindfest..

There is another way, which most people suggest.. To make the raids on your own. Wait a second... oh ok, but wouldn't it be better to ehm get some better items first, moreover - to see the raids from my own place, as videos are just witnessing the event - it would be much of a mimic, if i lead like this, and ye, most probably, i will fall. And how to make a raid, hoping to reach far, when i personally don't have the correct items, nor have a good achievement? Riiight... this is not going to be a good idea. Wait what? To make one and reserve the items till gunship, and to reserve the items, then to buy the rest of the boes on the ah... first, this is unfair; second, you see the flaw of logic here, right?


Probably here is the best place to add a thing connected to the topic - earlier today, joined a pug with 5.8k gs+, had 5.9 - yet, was on the 3rd place with a spriest (wasn't paying attention much to the spikes, yet haven't ignored them), and nop, no 284 weap ofc...


Let's step a little aside again - this time, in a forward direction. Our newb - not any longer a newb; with good gs, defeated lk and many other bosses - maly, k't, anub, the sunstrider, illidan, explaining to the ppl around (this time her) how to do their best, and really loving teaching and leading the rest (lead in the correct meaning of the word). Knowing that it is in deed hard to start here, queueing sometimes rdfn - simply to help the rest get blue items quickly, not having to wait long for the queue & to have less competition on the rolls and for own lolz; from time to time makes weekly/title/mount runs on weekly quests, is clever enough to set Free loot on os minions, so skinners can get some quick materials ( gj to everyone who does it! :) ); also, decides well about what gs is fine for each raid, including roles, classes, and anything needed for the boss to be dismantled. All good till here. Aaaaand here it goes bad. Like, everyone goes for VoA @5k (again usually +), yet everyone knows this raid is for way, way less gs, with the correct classes. So, let's make a slightly lower gs raid, that people can get their emblems asap, and have their 232 sets completed, if possible, even before the next lockout reset. How does a usual player look at this, however? Well... right i do have high gs why risk my save with these nabs here -.- i go finish my bosses in 2 min i get my items i am k (1st chances are 100% in both cases, 2nd with slightly lower gs bosses are down in 2min 15sec).. Same story is with toc raids - scenario: Lfm Toc 25; new players are welcome, we will explain everything - still keep your eyes open!; items will be free to be rolled according to ms & professions; gs 4.8k. Five seconds later: LFM TOC 25 5.2K GS+ BOE+REC+ORB RES LINK ACHI - (i actually have zero idea why ppl preff reserved raids xd) i think we all know what happens to the newb's one, right? Go to Icc now (absolutely the same situation)... and the cycle is closed.


You know guys, and you know it very well, that most of this depends mainly on the community around. There are, in deed, people and guilds who Do help new players to start - i will save their names for myself, so their /w & mailboxes aren't kept hostage... yet, the problem as a whole stays, does it not?... Honestly, i have not seen a single raid, except the ones i try to make - and ofc everyone is very happy about them post-raid, however i prefer to lead ones with really new ppl - with near 5.2k gs, as this is comparable to a nightmare - you have got your legitimate items, yet don't have ones to go up for a real icc - or toc. Thing is, however, that, if all players were new, they wouldn't focus dbs like yolo - and we would beat him, being careful and watching around them, yet... we usually leave him on 10% hp before he becomes a true vampire and goes 100% angy; second try - 5% hp; 3rd try - again same and i send my ppl go get their sleep. Or, will i ever see a weekly for naxx with 3.5k max - even if patchwreck has some preferences for a bear ot, and for a pug one can't really choose - there are other weeklies there, which can easily be fulfilled by just-hit 80... (ok with northrend items ofc)... or even sarthr? Ulduar vechicle fight... you get my point. A server with good scripts can welcome many new players - yet a server with many unwelcomed players is going to send away even more...


Now, as a thing we can do about this... i was considering, as in global it isn't that easy, as pointed above, probably we could try and make a group on the forums - somewhere new players can sign, and make a script to pm players or use /1 in the fos, pos, hor, storm peaks, icecrown; probably other earlier zones so ppl can have their hopes up; even /lfg where they can sign up; to remid in that very topic the basic things on the bosses and why even green/blue gems & enchants are important (in fact, when i have time, i will probably make a very, very big topic on what the raids are, and how they work for 25 players with different spells, buffs and bosses, but only if i have time and decide to do it xd). To choose a time, which would be rather unusual, and to reserve it - making this a little like a real guild run - different guilds can help for this, so everything goes at its best; to have ppl ready who don't really need items on the first bosses so in case someone dc-es for some reason.. (as we know these things happen, and it is normal - electricity, parents/children, or just an emergency - my sister several (!) times succeeded in inflaming the kitchen, one must always be ready with a fire extinguisher and a towel! It got quite funny when i went to school late though..) It would be good if the gm-s help around as well, as this is a Major thing with the server, on each of its realms - like an event, or anything, there are in fact many people who would love to take part in organizing such thing, including me! :) Yet - this is a thing way more depending on us, isn't it... What do you think about it?
And as a whole, on the topic?


Lastly. Choose who you prefer to be. And choose well; and don't forget the thing about guilds have i reminded you, good day/night! :)

Yo man, how's it going.

Can you give us a tl;dr of some sort? There are around 11 paragraphs, and I got to paragraph 6 without finding what your point is, and stopped. State your point early, or throw a tl;dr in.

So tldr you want a channel in-game that's whitelisted, troll-free zone, where 4k+ Players can group together and progress. So make one? Moderate it yourself, make a Discord, or just make a guild with the same ideal in mind.
ps: Don't make excuses for 5k players being lazy to make a raid, If they dont wanna learn and put forward effort into improving, aka knowing which class's provide X Benefit to a Raid Comp, boss tactics etc, Then why do they deserve loot?

Was looking for tl;dr. Disappointed.

As thydus said. I can see why

Nop, idea was to pre-make a pug on the forums with a small pre-raid guide with the important things explained - from simple enchants & gems to things to be careful on the bosses, share links around and people who want could join.. And i didn't put tl;dr because in the way i made the post, it is unneccssary - in case one wants to get the idea asap, the way i wrote it made so possible. Again Thydus, think you couldn't get my idea: the problem is that even with the knowledge of the fights, they simply can't. At least a proper one (past gunship)... By the way, i asked about your opinion on the topic, probably if you would help out in organising such an event; in deed, i might try, yet do you think it would work out well?

And selaya, i really find it hard to see what is the connection between the pesimistic quote you shared and the topic?..

In my opinion the main thing holding new players and the average warmane pug back is the fact that they're unwilling to take the time and read up on their class. The amount of people with bad enchants, sub-par gemming and complete disregard of proper stat values is extremely high. Until people decide to read this will continue to be the "norm" for low geared pugs.

As for what you can do to help these people, have them read (guides on their classes mostly). That's it. In a way this is very much like how people get educated. You can't expect someone to deal well with the concept of the complex numbers before that someone knows the other sets of numbers. It's a step by step process which requires one to study. This doesn't only apply to maths/ <insert other subject here> . This applies to almost anything in life that requires one to obtain information and practice.

Note that very few players will actually decide to learn and improve. Lazyness, lack of time and language barriers will prevent them in doing so.

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Originally Posted by cheinii

Nop, idea was to pre-make a pug on the forums with a small pre-raid guide with the important things explained - from simple enchants & gems to things to be careful on the bosses, share links around and people who want could join..

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There are, actually, a lot of guides, as here on warmane forums and also youtube, wowhead or some other private server forums. Nobody forbids any pug to look it up before jumping into ICC, but reading 3 paragraphs and 4-5 boss spells is too much for some, for others, English is the problem as they don't understand what does "Deals Shadow damage to you and nearby non-linked allies." mean.

The idea is nice, sure, there are pugs that could read and finish it, but there are others that'd see "oh hey, they wanna kill LK, I'll say I read it!" and keep on doing their own imaginary, twisted tactic they heard from a friend who never saw a boss after BPC after wiping there 2 times.

@OP, In your post, I think you answered most of your own questions as well as why this idea wouldn't work. GS, and skills aside, the most important commitment is time. If someone who have strange parents and therefore cannot make the time to raid on a set schedule so they cannot even join a guild, then why would they be able to make the "reserved pug raids" that you are proposing? Then the raid leader is now stuck trying to fill in that spot, his only option is to ask in global for someone to carry all these raid newbies who is really there on the spur of the moment and probably did not read the guides (since this reserved pug raid is suppose to explain tactics too). It doesn't benefit anyone who is carrying the raid, it doesn't benefit the raid leader if nothing is reserved (which is why some people will rather join reserved raids in hopes it'll progress further than they would themselves), any of the pug raiders can leave after a wipe so why do it?

As you have said that you've lead new people with near 5.2k got to DBS and went to bed after a few tries. So if you really managed to get a bunch of 4.7 to 5.2 k pugs together into ICC and even killed 3 bosses, what's wrong with that? You had to explain tactics right before the raid to half the group who has never been in ICC before and you managed to kill the first 3 bosses, I would call that a accomplishment.

You have the heart for new players and I would encourage you to join start up guilds and offer to lead them when you have the time, then you can at least be sure that the people who you are teaching to, at the very least, have the commitment to show up and try to learn how to raid rather than the random person who logs in once every couple months and expect to join a pug getting KS.

No1's gonna read this essay, u failed.

I will tell you the problem with ''casual'' players right here: they want hardcore, end-game content without any hardcore commitment. These days it is so easy to get carried in raids (5.2k minimum ICC25 pugs usually have average 5.5k+) that mistakes by randoms go unpunished because the good players carry them effortlessly. If I PUG toc10, I will ask 5.3k minimum. If I PUG icc10, I will ask 5.5k minimum. Why? Because a little more gs and a little more dps/hps *might* compensate for the brainless random guy. Why would you go into a raid with the knowledge it is RO after 1 try on Deathbringer Sauron? I can't be arsed carrying random noobs who don't care about progress or dedication, they waste my time and they waste the time of all people they are with.

In our guild we are working on downing LK10. We are fairly casual with a few very experienced players but we try to bring some freshies to ICC on a weekly basis (train run + main run every week). Yesterday we spent roughly 3 hours wiping on the LK and we spent probably an hour in total to prepare tacts etc. individually before the run, but we failed. We had fun, excitement, joy (and a **** ton of stress too when we wiped on 4%). To me this is what WoW is about. I don't care about the Kingslayer title, I care about getting it with my guildies and the fun that brings me. Random people don't have any kind of commitment and they leave a pug after 2 wipes, even if it's their own fault. They are too stubborn to learn and too stupid to realize it's their own fault mostly.

Nowadays, kiddies with no WoW experience (or only post-Cataclysm retail experience) are used to everything being given to them FOR FREE. Raid finder, dungeon finder, garrison, etc. Add the fact that nowaday's kiddies (12-18 age) are from the League Of Legends-generation, which makes them toxic and self-righteous as ****, and every random PUG is doomed to fail. That's why I don't take random noobs, only take achievements etc. These ''noobs'' that OP described don't WANT to learn, why else do they go toxic and raging after 1 or 2 tries? The people that want to learn will join a guild and my guild will help those people, but only if they show commitment (prepare tacts, get flasks, ench, etc.).

Last week we took a guy on a LK run who said he was aware of all tactics up until Sindy. Then it turned out that he thought that during Rotface, you had to kite the small ooze in the slime pools to make it go away (wiped). Yeah guess what, that guy won't be coming on a run for at least a month to come. I will not waste my time on stupid lying people that don't want to improve themselves.

/rant

tl;dr: ''noobs'' like OP described do not WANT to learn. Those who do, they will join guilds and be fine. If you cannot afford yourself to commit to doing weekly ICC runs, commit to a guild raid group on a schedule, etc. then WoW IS NOT FOR YOU. This is NOT a casual game if you want to play ICC. ICC is end-game content for end-game geared and end-game minded people. Stop crying if you don't want to put the effort in. No one will take you on a boost trip unless you pay them 50k gold, so don't expect them to do it for free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rotjochie

I will tell you the problem with ''casual'' players right here: they want hardcore, end-game content without any hardcore commitment. These days it is so easy to get carried in raids (5.2k minimum ICC25 pugs usually have average 5.5k+) that mistakes by randoms go unpunished because the good players carry them effortlessly. If I PUG toc10, I will ask 5.3k minimum. If I PUG icc10, I will ask 5.5k minimum. Why? Because a little more gs and a little more dps/hps *might* compensate for the brainless random guy. Why would you go into a raid with the knowledge it is RO after 1 try on Deathbringer Sauron? I can't be arsed carrying random noobs who don't care about progress or dedication, they waste my time and they waste the time of all people they are with.

In our guild we are working on downing LK10. We are fairly casual with a few very experienced players but we try to bring some freshies to ICC on a weekly basis (train run + main run every week). Yesterday we spent roughly 3 hours wiping on the LK and we spent probably an hour in total to prepare tacts etc. individually before the run, but we failed. We had fun, excitement, joy (and a **** ton of stress too when we wiped on 4%). To me this is what WoW is about. I don't care about the Kingslayer title, I care about getting it with my guildies and the fun that brings me. Random people don't have any kind of commitment and they leave a pug after 2 wipes, even if it's their own fault. They are too stubborn to learn and too stupid to realize it's their own fault mostly.

Nowadays, kiddies with no WoW experience (or only post-Cataclysm retail experience) are used to everything being given to them FOR FREE. Raid finder, dungeon finder, garrison, etc. Add the fact that nowaday's kiddies (12-18 age) are from the League Of Legends-generation, which makes them toxic and self-righteous as ****, and every random PUG is doomed to fail. That's why I don't take random noobs, only take achievements etc. These ''noobs'' that OP described don't WANT to learn, why else do they go toxic and raging after 1 or 2 tries? The people that want to learn will join a guild and my guild will help those people, but only if they show commitment (prepare tacts, get flasks, ench, etc.).

Last week we took a guy on a LK run who said he was aware of all tactics up until Sindy. Then it turned out that he thought that during Rotface, you had to kite the small ooze in the slime pools to make it go away (wiped). Yeah guess what, that guy won't be coming on a run for at least a month to come. I will not waste my time on stupid lying people that don't want to improve themselves.

/rant

tl;dr: ''noobs'' like OP described do not WANT to learn. Those who do, they will join guilds and be fine. If you cannot afford yourself to commit to doing weekly ICC runs, commit to a guild raid group on a schedule, etc. then WoW IS NOT FOR YOU. This is NOT a casual game if you want to play ICC. ICC is end-game content for end-game geared and end-game minded people. Stop crying if you don't want to put the effort in. No one will take you on a boost trip unless you pay them 50k gold, so don't expect them to do it for free.

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Deathbringer Sauron *Triggered*

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Originally Posted by Noobsmoke

Deathbringer Sauron *Triggered*

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ROFL
I got triggered by reading myself say that. My bad, I'm a LOTR fan.

Dude... Make a guild. Don't waste your time writing these walls of text that nobody reads.

I read & enjoyed your wall of text... if y´all want a TLDR, the keyword is "truth". But that´s PuG on all its glory... its faster to gear with a guild than wasting time with 3-boss-6kgs-pugs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haleft

I read & enjoyed your wall of text... if y´all want a TLDR, the keyword is "truth". But that´s PuG on all its glory... its faster to gear with a guild than wasting time with 3-boss-6kgs-pugs

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Exactly.
Including retail I've played on 3 different servers and downed the LK on pretty much all of them. Never has this happened with a pug group. The furthest I've ever gone with a pug is Sindragosa. And that was a very, very, very, very, very long run.

Meanwhile the 10 man HC group I became a part of had no problem taking me with my ****ty 232's/245's to ICC HC as a tank. We only made it to Sindy on that first run but was about 4 hours less than that pug run. The benefit of being in a guild........