Paladin Seal of Righteousness underperforming

Cheers everyone,

I wanna talk about something which is nagging me since a while already. The thing which concerns me is that back in the day on retail season 7/8 you had those crazy big Seal ouf Righteousness judgement crits. Here I firstly barely see my judgements critting, even on people with medium gearscores which leaves me thinking that talents regarding judgement critchance aren't working properly and secondly, which I am most sure of, either the Seal of the pure talent and aswell the Seal of Righteousness glyph don't affect damage done at all. In my opinion and from my experience, the retribution burst damage here is underperforming and I would like to hear out other people's opinions on this topic.

Kind regards

There was a bug that caused a second Seal of Righteousness to appear in the spellbook which does not deal additional judgement damage (deals same damage as Seal of Light/Justice judgement), make sure you are using the one that has additional judgement damage text at the bottom.

If you are using the correct one, then I don't really know what to say. There are a few non-retail mechanics on Warmane (such as the way certain items interact with stats/spells) but the majority of the competitive stuff works as it should.

Yeah man, I'm using the right one. But I've tested additional stuff like seal/judgement damage-increasing glyphs and talents, but the damage output stays the same for SoR. At least for the above mentioned glyph and the talent I am sure.

A few days ago I also compared the overall damage done on a single target of each the Command's and the Righteousness seal separately over a period of one minute time. I repeated this process 10 times for each seal, devided the outcome by 10 for each seal and compared the numbers.
Seal of Command had slightly better numbers than Seal of Righteousness, so it basically dealt the same amount of damage on a single target within the same amount of time. I am also sure that on retail you picked Seal of Righteousness for insane single target burst damage, which I can't find to appear on this server. I think I don't have to mention that on multitargets, the damage output of SoC was more than twice as much than of SoR. That leaves me to the conclusion that SoR is still the only seal to go in situations where you need to deal controlled damage, but in battlegrounds and open PvP it seems more beneficial to go with SoC.

Just to mention it; I played on retail in season 6, 7 and 8 and I remember clearly with 5.3k gearscore to have dealt regularly up to 6k judgement crits on of course lower geared people, but still, I am having 5.9k gs here on Icecrown and most of the time I'm not even critting half of that. MAYBE with wings + trinket + berserker's buff in battleground on squishy players.

I have some examples from season 6 to show. The battleground part of this video (http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=126425) perfectly demonstrates, what kind of damage was already possible in top tier season 6 gear on lower geared opponents. He is critting up to 4.4k with judgements, which is what I am dealing on puppets too right now. Usually 4.5-5.3k judgements there.

Mind linking your char so I can check what your gear looks like? I haven't experienced anything like that with SoR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dalarion

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary

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your gear is a joke you are missing
538 attack power from trinkets alone (2200 atp on proc for 15s)
82 strength from proffesions
40 strength from gems
50 helm
70atp neck
20 str shoulders
60atp back
50str check
25 str + 270str shadowmourne proc
20str gloves
27 str legs
50 str feet

that is 2062 flat attack power less than bis gear

and around 3-4% crit

you dont have glyph of seal of righteousness and 0/5 seals of the pure

with bis gear and talents+glyph your damage is going to be broken

He said he tested the SoR glyph and SotP talent and he says they are not working. What point is there talking about his gear if this topic is about the glyph and talent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by psyanide

He said he tested the SoR glyph and SotP talent and he says they are not working. What point is there talking about his gear if this topic is about the glyph and talent

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he didnt provide any numbers at all

90% of his post is about how he thinks its doing low damage and it was doing more damage on retail

he is doing low damage because he has terrible gear, bis gear (with kings) adds up to 2600 attack power and 3-4% crit WITHOUT procs and +-4200 attack power for 15s with procs

he will crit 8k+ judgements with bis gear wings and procs on 1200 resilience players

If he said he tested it and it wasn't increasing SoR or judgement damage then this warrants further testing with screenshot proof. On the wotlk server I played on b4 warmane both glyph and talent were not working and i think it had the same core as this server. I would test it myself but i dont have time for it. If i find time ill test it on lordaeron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killemalll365

your gear is a joke you are missing
538 attack power from trinkets alone (2200 atp on proc for 15s)
82 strength from proffesions
40 strength from gems
50 helm
70atp neck
20 str shoulders
60atp back
50str check
25 str + 270str shadowmourne proc
20str gloves
27 str legs
50 str feet

that is 2062 flat attack power less than bis gear

and around 3-4% crit

you dont have glyph of seal of righteousness and 0/5 seals of the pure

with bis gear and talents+glyph your damage is going to be broken

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All what you said shows me that you didn't understand my post and the problem at all. I explicitly pointed out that neither the talent, nor the glyph seem to have any effect on damage output regarding SoR at all. Furthermore is it NOT about comparing my gear to best in slot gear, which OF COURSE has better stats than I do, but to the s6 gear back in the days on official servers which dealt the same amounts of damage as I am dealing right now with 5.9k gearscore and an itemlvl 284 HC weapon. That just can't be legit. Even people like you should understand that. And by people like you, I don't mean to offend you, but you took some completely irrelevant information out of what I posted, without reading anything going on before and then even switched the topic into a different direction, which was completely off the subject, just to tell me how bad my gear is.

I really appreciate any kind of effort to solve things, but I'm officially asking you to leave this thread in peace or come up with something productive, since flaming each other was not what I intended on doing here.

Anyway since psyanide stated that he experienced similar data about this topic, I might take some time to test that stuff out again within the next couple of days and upload screenshots of the whole process here. I'm a bit short on time to do that tho, so if anyone feels motivated to test the talents and glyphs and so on before I do, it would be nice to upload screenshots here aswell.

Thanks for your effort

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dalarion

All what you said shows me that you didn't understand my post and the problem at all. I explicitly pointed out that neither the talent, nor the glyph seem to have any effect on damage output regarding SoR at all. Furthermore is it NOT about comparing my gear to best in slot gear, which OF COURSE has better stats than I do, but to the s6 gear back in the days on official servers which dealt the same amounts of damage as I am dealing right now with 5.9k gearscore and an itemlvl 284 HC weapon. That just can't be legit. Even people like you should understand that. And by people like you, I don't mean to offend you, but you took some completely irrelevant information out of what I posted, without reading anything going on before and then even switched the topic into a different direction, which was completely off the subject, just to tell me how bad my gear is.

I really appreciate any kind of effort to solve things, but I'm officially asking you to leave this thread in peace or come up with something productive, since flaming each other was not what I intended on doing here.

Anyway since psyanide stated that he experienced similar data about this topic, I might take some time to test that stuff out again within the next couple of days and upload screenshots of the whole process here. I'm a bit short on time to do that tho, so if anyone feels motivated to test the talents and glyphs and so on before I do, it would be nice to upload screenshots here aswell.

Thanks for your effort

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you are coming out so dumb i am not sure if you are trolling or not

anyway

did 3 minutes of testing

SoR damage without glyph and talents= 591
SoR with glyph without talents= 650
judgement 1859

SoR with talents no glyph = 680
SoR with talents and glyph = 739
judgement 2091

''I explicitly pointed out that neither the talent, nor the glyph seem to have any effect on damage output regarding SoR at all.''

next time maybe spent 2 minutes of your time testing instead of this

''Furthermore is it NOT about comparing my gear to best in slot gear, which OF COURSE has better stats than I do, but to the s6 gear back in the days on official servers which dealt the same amounts of damage as I am dealing right now with 5.9k gearscore and an itemlvl 284 HC weapon.''

your gear is not that amazing compared to season 6 gear, you completely forgot its not season 6 on icecrown anymore, everybody has full s8 offparts and pvp trinket after 1 week of playing.

you have any idea about how resilience works?

Please leave, I don't even want to talk to people like you. You don't understand simple mathematical procedures like median data of a series of outcoming numbers. You have to take a number of let's say 10 judgements, add them all together and divide them by 10. Like that you are getting a median which you can eventually compare. Accuracy of the median towards the true number increases by the number of tries you're doing. That's 11th grade stochastics. You are showing me here some single numbers which do vary a lot. 3 Minutes aren't enough to test this. I said above the damage output of my judgement crits vary from 4.4k to 5.3k critical strikes. No changes after applying talents + glyphs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killemalll365

your gear is not that amazing compared to season 6 gear, you completely forgot its not season 6 on icecrown anymore, everybody has full s8 offparts and pvp trinket after 1 week of playing.

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This just shows that you really don't understand anything of what I am saying here. I don't know why you have to bring this up again over and over. That's not the topic. I linked a video from above showing a full s6 geared paladin back in 2009 on retail doing equal judgements on opponents.

Edit: I just went onto the blackrock realm and tested out the whole stuff with two different talenttrees and different glyphs. At least for the additional whitehit damage of SoR you seem to be right. It definitely increases from 700 to about 900. For the original topic tho, on how it is affecting the judgements, I am still not convinced that it's working as it should. Without glyphs and talents, I am dealing noncritical from 2.1k to 2.4k. Critical strikes from 4.2k up to 4.7k. With glyphs and talents it's not the same, but it seems to vary even more than that. I get everything down from 2k noncrits, up to 2.6k noncrits and from 4.2k critical strikes up to 5.1k critical strikes. To me it seems like that talents sometimes definitely affect the number of the crit's outcome, but it ain't consistently. I will do another test on Icecrown. Just not today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dalarion

Please leave, I don't even want to talk to people like you. You don't understand simple mathematical procedures like median data of a series of outcoming numbers. You have to take a number of let's say 10 judgements, add them all together and divide them by 10. Like that you are getting a median which you can eventually compare. Accuracy of the median towards the true number increases by the number of tries you're doing. That's 11th grade stochastics. You are showing me here some single numbers which do vary a lot. 3 Minutes aren't enough to test this. I said above the damage output of my judgement crits vary from 4.4k to 5.3k critical strikes. No changes after applying talents + glyphs.



This just shows that you really don't understand anything of what I am saying here. I don't know why you have to bring this up again over and over. That's not the topic. I linked a video from above showing a full s6 geared paladin back in 2009 on retail doing equal judgements on opponents.

Edit: I just went onto the blackrock realm and tested out the whole stuff with two different talenttrees and different glyphs. At least for the additional whitehit damage of SoR you seem to be right. It definitely increases from 700 to about 900. For the original topic tho, on how it is affecting the judgements, I am still not convinced that it's working as it should. Without glyphs and talents, I am dealing noncritical from 2.1k to 2.4k. Critical strikes from 4.2k up to 4.7k. With glyphs and talents it's not the same, but it seems to vary even more than that. I get everything down from 2k noncrits, up to 2.6k noncrits and from 4.2k critical strikes up to 5.1k critical strikes. To me it seems like that talents sometimes definitely affect the number of the crit's outcome, but it ain't consistently. I will do another test on Icecrown. Just not today.

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I am still not sure if you are trolling or just 30 IQ.

Judgement with seal of righteousness deals the same damage everytime because it scales only with attack power and spell power.

The video you linked is completely irrelevant due to many changes introduced in later patches.

for example Resilience: No longer reduces the amount of damage done by damage-over-time spells, but instead reduces the amount of all damage done by players by the same proportion. In addition, the amount of resilience needed to reduce critical strike chance, critical strike damage and overall damage has been increased by 15%.

So before August 4, 2009 resilience didnt reduce flat damage done by players.

So how does resilience play a role here if his damage then was already almost as high as my judgement damage on puppets now? Just as from my gear to bis gear - as you said the judgements would crit 8k on 1.2k resilience - that's an increase of 3-4k damage and from his s6 to my gear it is approximately the same difference, but he is dealing a little less than 1k difference in judgement crits? Hmm nah. As I said before - on retail back in the days I witnessed myself much higher judgement crits even past August 4th 09 on well geared players.

in general if you have a weapon thats vastly outscaling the rest of your gear you have little business using sor - its the seal that _completely_ ignores any weapon dps

Why are you using SoR anyway? SoCommand is flat out better not just on the obvious multiple targets, but better on singles too. I just dont get why so many people believe SoR is better for anything. Yes, SoR has better judgements, but its seal damage massively lower becaus SoR is lower damage per hit, and cant crit, it ends up about +50% more damage on the seal and the overall effect is that SoC is just massively better, not just a little bit, but a lot better. And thats just on singles, add in more targets and its an insane difference. To put it simply, SoR and smourne will lose to SoC and Gloren. As a side bonus, you can get the SoC glyph for pvp which keeps you from ever needing to judge wisdom and allows for more self heals.

Don't believe me? Feel free to test this out on some dummies, and i mean the target type, not the ones sitting in Stormwind. Or maybe test it out on them too, its lots of fun.