[Onyxia] Ninja loot policy needs to be clarified and amended.

This is regarding the ninja loot policy as stated here https://forum.warmane.com/showthread...=1#post2651922

The reason I write this is because the current rules are ambiguous and can lead to unfair situations and unjust bans. I have seen two bans that I think are unjust and I would like to get clarification on the rules.
- Holy priest winning a '+spellpower and healing' item over a DPS caster
- Enhancement shaman queue-ing as DPS/Heal and ending up Off-Spec healing the dungeon.

Offending rule: In RDF needing on items for Off-Spec (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).
Issues:
- Is "Off-Spec" in this case referring to the talents of the character or the role they are fulfilling,
- Hybrid classes can use multiple types of items* (e.g. enhancement shaman needing on both physical and caster gear)
- How is gear handled that is not within the armor-type of the class**
- Due to the design of items in vanilla wow a lot of items have a unclear designation of spec and many items can be an upgrade to multiple 'specs'.***

*this is especially unclear at lower levels.
**in vanilla there are many items that are BIS not within the armor type of the class (e.g. edgemasters or devilsaur)
***there are items that are designed for a single class but can be used by other classes e.g. shadowcraft is good for druids but can only be upgraded by rogues.

I think the looting rules and definition of a 'ninja' in these cases is currently ambiguous and should be amended to clarify what is meant here.
A lot of people queue RDF with a role that fits their Off-spec that are unaware of the possibility that they can be accused or banned for being a ninja while trying to relief the stresses of the RDF queues by fulfilling an Off-spec role.

To be absolutely clear this post is not meant to reduce the punishment or make it easier for ninja looters. I would like to have a discussion that will help clarify or amend the rules so that there is less confusion about this topic.

+bump

Also curious about this, as I'm willing to queue as tank but want to loot DPS gear. I've already seen people get ban for queuing as off-spec healer/tank and others getting outraged when they roll main spec for gear. This seems like it would really negatively effect dungeon queue times if this was in fact bannable.

You can accept the dungeon with only 1 role. That's your MS. Everything else is "GREED" button. Super clear.
And you need to give specific example of an item.

I think the main part that should be addressed by Warmane staff in this post is the Off-spec ruling. If you queue as a healer/dps or tank/dps are you by the rules as written excluded from the rolling on anything that is not for your assigned role in RDF, say warriors tanking while also queueing DPS etc.

Because one of the most obvious tactics employed by levelers is queueing for multiple roles if your class allows it. Should you thus be excluded from rolling on items you might use for the rest of the game?

Would love to hear the rationale regarding this, as whether this gets clarified moving forward.

bumpity bump

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArbiArrr

Because one of the most obvious tactics employed by levelers is queueing for multiple roles if your class allows it. Should you thus be excluded from rolling on items you might use for the rest of the game?

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Yes. You can roll NEED only on items for MS. What exactly is confusing for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArbiArrr

Would love to hear the rationale regarding this, as whether this gets clarified moving forward.

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Rationale is fair loot distribution towards everyone. I understand that rolling for 2 roles seems fair to you, but other players will not agree, I know it's surprising.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Yes. You can roll NEED only on items for MS. What exactly is confusing for you?

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I think this is exactly where the issue lies. The current ninja rules talk about 'specs' whereas in RDF you are assigned for a 'role' so as a 'feral' specced druid you could be assigned the 'healer' role. You are saying the 'role' is leading whereas the rules state the 'spec' is leading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Rationale is fair loot distribution towards everyone. I understand that rolling for 2 roles seems fair to you, but other players will not agree, I know it's surprising.

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I don't think the issue is that people want to roll for 2 'roles' its that its unclear which one of these will get you a ban for 'ninja-ing' the one of your talents or the one you got assigned. This is actually NOT clear and should be clarified in the rules.

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Originally Posted by soulio

Offending rule: In RDF needing on items for Off-Spec (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).
Issues:
- Is "Off-Spec" in this case referring to the talents of the character or the role they are fulfilling,
- Hybrid classes can use multiple types of items* (e.g. enhancement shaman needing on both physical and caster gear)
- How is gear handled that is not within the armor-type of the class**
- Due to the design of items in vanilla wow a lot of items have a unclear designation of spec and many items can be an upgrade to multiple 'specs'.***

*this is especially unclear at lower levels.
**in vanilla there are many items that are BIS not within the armor type of the class (e.g. edgemasters or devilsaur)
***there are items that are designed for a single class but can be used by other classes e.g. shadowcraft is good for druids but can only be upgraded by rogues.

I think the looting rules and definition of a 'ninja' in these cases is currently ambiguous and should be amended to clarify what is meant here.
A lot of people queue RDF with a role that fits their Off-spec that are unaware of the possibility that they can be accused or banned for being a ninja while trying to relief the stresses of the RDF queues by fulfilling an Off-spec role.

To be absolutely clear this post is not meant to reduce the punishment or make it easier for ninja looters. I would like to have a discussion that will help clarify or amend the rules so that there is less confusion about this topic.

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Off-spec refers to both talents and role. There's no "I'm a DPS druid so I need all the caster and melee stuff huehue". What role you end up in, you will roll as one. There's no "My actual MS is DPS, but I got in as a Tank role here. So my MS is considered tank". You roll as the role you're assigned in as, no matter if it's MS/OS in "reality".
Some classes/specs being able to need/utilize different types of items doesn't make it right for e.g. Enhancement shaman to need caster gear as they are more of a melee spec.
Armor type in RDF is basic. You're plate wielder, you're not allowed to roll need leather gear. Select greed and communicate after rolls if need be. Or ask for permission to need roll, but make sure all 4 other players agree to it, no answer is not 'yes'.
Armor sets may be usable by multiple classes, but they are primarily always designed for a specific class in mind. Sadly some class specs goes against these designs, e.g. Wildheart set being useless for Feral druid, but on the other hand Shadowcraft is amazing one. Same deal as with different armor types, communicate and ask others if you can roll.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Off-spec refers to both talents and role. There's no "I'm a DPS druid so I need all the caster and melee stuff huehue". What role you end up in, you will roll as one. There's no "My actual MS is DPS, but I got in as a Tank role here. So my MS is considered tank". You roll as the role you're assigned in as, no matter if it's MS/OS in "reality".
Some classes/specs being able to need/utilize different types of items doesn't make it right for e.g. Enhancement shaman to need caster gear as they are more of a melee spec.
Armor type in RDF is basic. You're plate wielder, you're not allowed to roll need leather gear. Select greed and communicate after rolls if need be. Or ask for permission to need roll, but make sure all 4 other players agree to it, no answer is not 'yes'.
Armor sets may be usable by multiple classes, but they are primarily always designed for a specific class in mind. Sadly some class specs goes against these designs, e.g. Wildheart set being useless for Feral druid, but on the other hand Shadowcraft is amazing one. Same deal as with different armor types, communicate and ask others if you can roll.

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If this is indeed the stance that Warmane takes then the argument is still for them to reflect it as such in their code of conduct. The fact that the wording in their code of conduct currently is still ambiguous is my problem in this case.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Off-spec refers to both talents and role. There's no "I'm a DPS druid so I need all the caster and melee stuff huehue". What role you end up in, you will roll as one. There's no "My actual MS is DPS, but I got in as a Tank role here. So my MS is considered tank". You roll as the role you're assigned in as, no matter if it's MS/OS in "reality".
Some classes/specs being able to need/utilize different types of items doesn't make it right for e.g. Enhancement shaman to need caster gear as they are more of a melee spec.
Armor type in RDF is basic. You're plate wielder, you're not allowed to roll need leather gear. Select greed and communicate after rolls if need be. Or ask for permission to need roll, but make sure all 4 other players agree to it, no answer is not 'yes'.
Armor sets may be usable by multiple classes, but they are primarily always designed for a specific class in mind. Sadly some class specs goes against these designs, e.g. Wildheart set being useless for Feral druid, but on the other hand Shadowcraft is amazing one. Same deal as with different armor types, communicate and ask others if you can roll.

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Thank you for the reply, this is exactly what I'm trying to address with this post. I do not think the ruling that is being applied are 'bad' or 'unjust', I feel the rules that are stated in the policy aren't reflecting the actual rules that are being enforced.

You touch upon two of the main issues I have with the current wording of the stated loot policy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Off-spec refers to both talents and role. There's no "I'm a DPS druid so I need all the caster and melee stuff huehue". What role you end up in, you will roll as one. There's no "My actual MS is DPS, but I got in as a Tank role here. So my MS is considered tank". You roll as the role you're assigned in as, no matter if it's MS/OS in "reality".

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According to what you said the role you accept when entering the RDF is the one you should roll for, this is regardless of spec. The rules should reflect this and not talk about an ambiguous 'spec'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Some classes/specs being able to need/utilize different types of items doesn't make it right for e.g. Enhancement shaman to need caster gear as they are more of a melee spec.
Armor type in RDF is basic. You're plate wielder, you're not allowed to roll need leather gear. Select greed and communicate after rolls if need be. Or ask for permission to need roll, but make sure all 4 other players agree to it, no answer is not 'yes'.

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This is an particularly interesting one to me, a lot of BIS warrior items are not plate or mail (e.g. Savage Gladiator Chain or Eye of Rend) this would mean they would be eligible for getting banned because it wasn't discussed beforehand even though its widely regarded as their 'main spec/role'.

Just to reiterate here aswell as soulio clarified it with the last post, this is a uniquely vanilla problem with itemization and that's why this is an important issue to address early on during this servers lifetime, otherwise later on you're going to have more issues depending on how thoroughly the GMs go through each report ticket, and at how much they take it at specifically face value.

Just to clarify: I'm not representative of Warmane, I'm no part of the staff. Just a regular use here, so what I wrote there isn't "Warmane's stance".

so lets say im fury tank, go into dungeon and dps trinket drops. Am i allowed to loot the trinket since there are no real tank trinkets? Also dealing more dmg means more aggro so rolling on dps gear as tank should be fine too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Just to clarify: I'm not representative of Warmane, I'm no part of the staff. Just a regular use here, so what I wrote there isn't "Warmane's stance".

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Yes sorry, did not mean to construe you as such, what I was referencing was that if their rationale goes like yours does then that should be reflected in their code of conduct. As it stands only their code of conduct is not sufficiently clear enough to only be interpreted one way and does leave quite a few scenarios for vanilla looting up for quite a bit of debate, such as the example provided by soulio earlier.

Ima dps tank prot warrior dps who also heals himself (enraged regen) so ima roll need on everything. /* cough