[Lordareon] Rebuff BQL25 HC & LOD

After the recent bug fix to BQL's Twilight Bloodbolt using the wrong ID (shooting 4 Bloodbolts instead of 2) and the previous nerfs to BQL about a year ago or so, BQL HC has become trivial, easier than non-endwing bosses. A guild finally successfully killing BQL was a major milestone in that guild's progression, as it demonstrated players had the restraint to respect range, the reaction time to merge links, and the DPS to overcome the Enrage timer. As it stands now, and as a result of the recent bug fix, the chance of being gibbed at any given point is significantly reduced and even if you aren't respecting range and end up killing someone, you do not immediately lack DPS to kill the boss because someone or two died. For a "hardcore server", this isn't very hardcore when you do not need to minmax, respect mechanics, or play well to kill the boss. Currently, Blood quarter trash is harder than BQL. Professor and Sindra still remain formidable endwing bosses on Lordareon because no changes were made to what made those specific encounters difficult, whereas BQL has been made easier than Festergut as a result of bug fixes & nerfs. When BQL HC's health pool was reduced by 8 million a year and some change ago, several guilds secured their first kill on BQL, an indicator that the nerf was too much. It should be a hellish healing fight with a tight DPS requirement, instead of Festergut with Wings.

In a similar fashion, LOD's enrage timer used to be 13:38 instead of the retail (current) 15:00 minutes. This made it so you had to play max 6 or 7 valk waves in phase 2 to be able to kill it before Enrage. To be able to do this, players had to learn how to minmax their damage on not only Valkyries, but throughout the entire encounter. Now, assuming you play 7 valk waves, you can easily play 4 & 1/2 rooms and kill before Enrage. For a hardcore server, it seems a bit lackluster to not force players to play to the best of their ability in order to kill the final raid encounter of this expansion. With only (maybe?) tank damage being increased on Lordareon compared to Icecrown, this fight no longer demands a hardcore mindset to overcome, arguably being easier than Professor or Sindragosa.

For BQL HC, I am suggesting a couple changes in order to bring her back up to being a formidable end-wing boss:

- Revert the bug fix to Twilight Bloodbolt, having her cast four Bloodbolts per wave throughout the entirety of the encounter, instead of just in flight phase. This would be effectively a custom change to the boss that isn't just an arbitrary number increase, a good difficulty-increasing change.
- Increase her health pool. I suggest returning it to prenerf 79.6m, but any sizable buff would be nice (5m+)

For LOD, I am suggesting the following changes in order to return LOD to a fight where players really need to try:

- Reduce Enrage timer back to 13:38.

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Originally Posted by Frysharry

For a "hardcore server", this isn't very hardcore when you do not need to minmax, respect mechanics, or play well to kill the boss. Currently, Blood quarter trash is harder than BQL. Professor and Sindra still remain formidable endwing bosses on Lordareon because no changes were made to what made those specific encounters difficult, whereas BQL has been made easier than Festergut as a result of bug fixes & nerfs. When BQL HC's health pool was reduced by 8 million a year and some change ago, several guilds secured their first kill on BQL, an indicator that the nerf was too much. It should be a hellish healing fight with a tight DPS requirement, instead of Festergut with Wings.

In a similar fashion, LOD's enrage timer used to be 13:38 instead of the retail (current) 15:00 minutes. This made it so you had to play max 6 or 7 valk waves in phase 2 to be able to kill it before Enrage. To be able to do this, players had to learn how to minmax their damage on not only Valkyries, but throughout the entire encounter. Now, assuming you play 7 valk waves, you can easily play 4 & 1/2 rooms and kill before Enrage. For a hardcore server, it seems a bit lackluster to not force players to play to the best of their ability in order to kill the final raid encounter of this expansion. With only (maybe?) tank damage being increased on Lordareon compared to Icecrown, this fight no longer demands a hardcore mindset to overcome, arguably being easier than Professor or Sindragosa.

For BQL HC, I am suggesting a couple changes in order to bring her back up to being a formidable end-wing boss:

- Revert the bug fix to Twilight Bloodbolt, having her cast four Bloodbolts per wave throughout the entirety of the encounter, instead of just in flight phase. This would be effectively a custom change to the boss that isn't just an arbitrary number increase, a good difficulty-increasing change.
- Increase her health pool. I suggest returning it to prenerf 79.6m, but any sizable buff would be nice (5m+)

For LOD, I am suggesting the following changes in order to return LOD to a fight where players really need to try:

- Reduce Enrage timer back to 13:38.

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The current situation as it stands on Lordaeron doesn't require you to minmax anything, even if you had the buffs you propese it still won't require you to do fancy things to get **** done because you got near-bis characters getting gear carried through the raid, you just need to play the fights properly in the end. This was proven on Frostmourne where people going for RF managed to do the ''formidable'' endwing bosses you mentioned with mostly t9 gear & sitting at around 5.8-9k gearscore.

LK enrage timer would be noticeable on a progressive server, but when you got pretty much everyone BiS or near BiS in a raid you won't push 6-7 valk waves; you should be aiming for 4 or as much as 5 in the worst case.

Believe me, all those buffs won't do much on a server where everyone is already geared. It would only mean something if those ''hardcore players'' would be just random casuals.

Everything stated above is correct, Lordaeron has always been about getting long-time players geared up and continuing their play, and pushing deeper into the bosses of the server. Hell, Sparta is only 6 heroics away from 12/12hc and many other guilds are moving their way into Light of Dawn, invictus, morally unacceptable, The Drunk Shack, etc. Buffs to the raid only make things more stressful and harder for new players trying to join the community, but does nothing to those already actively raiding as all they do is make a 1/2/3 wipe adjustment to their raid set up and then they continue on their merry way.

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Originally Posted by morfagor

The current situation as it stands on Lordaeron doesn't require you to minmax anything, even if you had the buffs you propese it still won't require you to do fancy things to get **** done because you got near-bis characters getting gear carried through the raid, you just need to play the fights properly in the end. This was proven on Frostmourne where people going for RF managed to do the ''formidable'' endwing bosses you mentioned with mostly t9 gear & sitting at around 5.8-9k gearscore.

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Keep in mind these are the best-of-the-best players. These aren't some relatively new players in a new guild "progressing" everything when the avg GS of the raid is 6350. It makes perfect sense of why these players would be able to slaughter the end-wing bosses without an issue, because they have done it hundreds of times before and know how to minmax everything about this class. If you take the DPS from top guilds, such as Illusion or Transcendense, it makes every boss look trivial, but that's only because these players are the cream of the crop: gear can only do so much for a player if you don't know how to maximize results from it. For players/guilds who are cruising through content solely because of gear, they should have to learn how to play their class properly and respect the tactics of the encounter to kill stuff. BQL is arguably easier than Fester now after the recent Twilight Bloodbolt fixes.

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Originally Posted by morfagor

LK enrage timer would be noticeable on a progressive server, but when you got pretty much everyone BiS or near BiS in a raid you won't push 6-7 valk waves; you should be aiming for 4 or as much as 5 in the worst case.

Believe me, all those buffs won't do much on a server where everyone is already geared. It would only mean something if those ''hardcore players'' would be just random casuals.

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It still would impact progressing guilds and guilds who have secured a kill just on Enrage. This shouldn't happen on a server like Lordareon, especially 3 or 4 years after it was fully progressed initially, where players have more than enough time to get additional gear and has all the resources (vods, experienced players to talk to, etc) to do everything properly. If you're killing a boss like LOD on Enrage now, it means your raid is not performing properly. In my opinion, from a "hardcore server", this shouldn't ever be rewarded. The idea is to have everyone playing to the best of their ability. I mean look at the recent bug fix to Professor's Mutated Plague in P3: this was a significant damage increase for the encounter in the last phase and as a result, the role of the taunter became even more significant, as well as the raid's DPS overall. Professor lost about 5 million HP in a recent ICC tuning patch (the same that nerfed BQL significantly), but this bug fix effectively works as a buff to the encounter. In BQL's case, it was a significant nerf to a previously unknown bugged boss, a 'bug' that, in my opinion, is indicative of a "hardcore" tuning change that isn't just flat number buffs.

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Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

Buffs to the raid only make things more stressful and harder for new players trying to join the community

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This is the entire purpose of Lordareon, a buffed PvE server. Players knew this from the realm selection screen. If they didn't want to have to perform to the best that they can to down bosses, then they should roll on Icecrown.

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Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

but does nothing to those already actively raiding as all they do is make a 1/2/3 wipe adjustment to their raid set up and then they continue on their merry way.

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Right, so in order to prevent wipes they need to stop slacking and perform better, or replace players who chronically are incapable of doing so.

My main concern towards these kinds of fixes without an appropiate rebuff/renerf is that those are in practice just massive nerfs/buffs done on a mostly random basis.

Encounters got buffed/nerfed according to the data provided, these bugs included, now a few things get fixed and encounters thus end up over- or undertuned compared to what was actually intended.

If buffs/nerfs aren't done to compensate for these kinds of fixes we're just playing the lottery when someone rediscovers a 10 year old log and links dbs should do 50% less damage on blood nova. Or LK should do 50% more with infest.
Lordaeron isn't supposed to be "blizzlike" in the first place. Why encounters are "fixed" based on old retail logs is a mystery anyway.

''Keep in mind these are the best-of-the-best players. ''

I know a few people from Offline. They are very good players that have enough time to dedicate at the game. You can search at experienced players (INDIVIDUALLY SPEAKING, not as a guild) playing on Icecrown and Lord just casually because they don't have enough time IRL to commit to race for RF's and stuff that are as good as people from Offline, Invisus, DPS all star, and any other top tier guild you can remember. At this point we are in the game (12 y/o xpac) there's no ''best of the best'' rather than just very good players with (or without) commitment and sort of ''new'' ''casuals'' etc. (Guild wise is a completely different thing, coordination is the key).


''It still would impact progressing guilds and guilds who have secured a kill just on Enrage.''

Those people shouldn't be aiming at Lordaeron on the first place, sorry if I hurt someone, but killing LK on enrage with 6.3k avg gearscore while puhing 7 valk waves just comes to show how bad their raid damage is.


''If you're killing a boss like LOD on Enrage now, it means your raid is not performing properly. ''

/clap. I agree.

All an all, we're leaving ''good players'' out of the question here. What we need to focus on is if those buffs would have a possitive impact on the ''new/progressive/casuals'' barely getting content done in the current state or will make them just quit.

It's actually hard to tell wether if buffing things would make more people play (due to the overall feeling of progression) or make more people quit (due to the feeling of being uncapable to do such things). I think it should be made on a survey, specially trying to focus on those players barely getting content done or those progressing. If you got too many ''casual'' players they'll just leave; if you got to many ''new but dedicated players'' they'll most likely stay.

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Originally Posted by morfagor

It's actually hard to tell wether if buffing things would make more people play (due to the overall feeling of progression) or make more people quit (due to the feeling of being uncapable to do such things). I think it should be made on a survey, specially trying to focus on those players barely getting content done or those progressing. If you got too many ''casual'' players they'll just leave; if you got to many ''new but dedicated players'' they'll most likely stay.

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I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment. Lordareon is kind of in an in-between place without any kind of niche anymore since the conception of Frostmourne. Contrary to this thread, I am not opposed to Warmane turning Lordareon into an Icecrown 2.0, with full cash shop and all. Is Lordareon the hardcore realm, or is it so far progressed that any semblance of 'progression' is inherently tainted by just how geared the average player is? Should the realm remain a pseudo-hardcore realm? I don't know if putting it up to a community vote is necessarily a good idea because of how historically opposed the community is to objectively good changes for the realm's long term health (crossrealm, dungeon finder, heirlooms, etc), but I think it's coming to a point in Lordareon's lifespan that it needs a big shakeup. Maybe turn it into Icecrown 2.0 and allow free server transfers from Icecrown for a week to alleviate some pressure on the realm? A nice injection of "fresh" players to Lordareon would be nice! Having variable xp rates like Icecrown would be nice too! I would like to level some alts but I really can't be arsed to do it again on 1x. Since Warmane allow players to change the xp rate as they wish (something I advocated for and I am going to take some credit in getting made into a feature :D), it would be nice to allow Lordareon to go up to 3x or something.

Regardless what Warmane decides to do in the future, as of now Lordareon is the "hardcore" sister of Icecrown and bosses should be rebuffed a bit to reflect that.

Edit: I just want to emphasize what exactly I think "hardcore" means, and some examples of things Warmane does that backs up my beliefs. Within the context of a server, hardcore would mean, effectively, the race to realm first. In effect, downing the content the fastest and with the least amount of gear. Is it really impressive that a guild kills LOD on Lordareon with an average raid GS of 6475? No, and nor is it "hardcore". You can see this be the case because Warmane opens cash shop for the raid tier gear a couple weeks after it was first downed by "top guilds" on Frostmourne. They have put a time on how long the concept of "hardcore" exists on a fresh server, and it's a couple weeks after the first kill. By then, players should have more than sufficient gear from clearing/reclearing bosses week after week to be able to clear the raid in its entirety. It's not "hardcore" to buy gear but in the same vein Frostmourne would undoubtedly be called more "hardcore" relative to Lordareon, simply because everyone doesn't out gear the raids.

So the question that comes from this is: is Lordareon still a "hardcore" realm, and if it is, then why has content been nerfed, and continue to be nerfed, to trivial difficulty? If it isn't a hardcore realm, then when can we expect an Icecrown 2.0?

TL;DR Haha, you want a buff? YOU WANT A BUFF XD AChieving something in lordearon is like having a full time job, you cant do raids while chillin there without wiping for 5 hours lmao f that, if they are buffing buff them by adding new mechanics, stop making fights retaredly longer, stop multipliying their damage and HP that just stretches boss fight...

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Originally Posted by AkkaStyle

TL;DR Haha, you want a buff? YOU WANT A BUFF XD AChieving something in lordearon is like having a full time job, you cant do raids while chillin there without wiping for 5 hours lmao f that, if they are buffing buff them by adding new mechanics, stop making fights retaredly longer, stop multipliying their damage and HP that just stretches boss fight...

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Unless you're a casual playing on Lordaeron that doesn't happen. As I stated above, when you got people doing the whole raid with an average 5900 gearscore it can't be qualified ''hardcore'' in end-game terms. As Frysharry correctly said, is not impressive to do LOD with bis geared chars on Lordaeron nor it's a challenge for average geared groups with decent players. The discussion still stands, once the server reached the ''end game phase'' (and this happened back on 2017 with LOD being nerfed and killed) how do you keep players on it? How do you keep the ''challenge'' going?

He has proposed so far very interesting features that require either the realm to be open or some sort of ''buffs'' to keep the challenge going for the new players (since as we talked, in order to tune something into ''hardcore'' for min maxers it would require a lot more and probably even pre-nerf 2017 values)

Loardaeron is first and foremost intended to be blizzlike as much as possible, this is why it's mostly considered hardcore, not so much because of the removed icc buffs.
So with that in mind, further hardcore-ing it by modifying enrage timers more than necessary and also "tweaking" encounter abilities to your taste for 'toghness' is pulling the realm away from its intention. And coming to prove this is the actual applied fix to the mentioned encounter, so it does exactly what it was supposed to do. Some people may know, this is one of the reasons why as many logs as possible had to be downloaded from WoL.

It's a complete 'moo' point that because more and more guilds are gearing up and nearing LOD /and also because for a handful of guilds farming it doesn't feel challenging anymore/ icc should be hardcored ('buffed' as you say) even more. That's just like...dumb beyond belief. This is the nature of every game. Not only that, i have never ever heard on retail from top guilds "heyy Blizz umm could u pls make it a bit more difficult?" No, quite the opposite - Blizzard was nerfing. Oh wait, not only nerfing, but also FIXING buggy encounters, just like BQL was fixed here.

It drives me crazy here is that some ppl farming lod think they're now the uber-mega playas and top of the world. And especially when these people have the nerves to tell me 'heyy this is hardcore server and not exactly retail', like... desperately reaching for the last straw and trying imply that here Lordaeron is tougher than it was on retail. No, it's not. (smack in the face)
Not to a person who:
made all achievements for the drake in icc with much less than 277 BiS gear.
made all achievments for the drake in Ulduar with all 226 items gear.
made all achievments in ToGC with 245 or less items gear.
did Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, Algalon, Knock, Knock, Knock on Wood (Freya), I Choose You, Steelbreaker and all other Ulduar hardmodes before the nerfs, everything on retail, and many more. Quite frankly, icc is stupid in terms of challenge on the face of what Ulduar presented and demanded for the according gear level.

I digressed a bit, but it comes to show how ridiculous and pointless this and such topics are, and people must really think twice "have i really reached the pinnacle of the game here to demand buffing it to suit my mega ultra skillz".

If Warmane has to do one thing is to ensure all encounters and their variations in Ulduar are scripted exactly how they were pre-nerfs on retail. And so all top playas can go in there in 226-less gear. Then we'll see who are the toughest. BQL, Sindi, PP, LK.. are all joke to some encounters in Ulduar when added the Achievment factor

I really enjoy lordaeron the way it is and would hate any change which brings it further towards icecrown. While it isnt hard enough to give 12/12hc icc25 to only the best people ever, it is still hard enough to be somewhat rare on the wider spectrum unlike icecrown, where literally anyone can do it after buying the appropriate gear and then getting himself in a group to do it real quick. I personally would love to see some buffs to bosses and have to reprogress them, but I also know of many people who wouldnt (I heard many guilds, which were in the ~8hc progression range complain about marrowgar's flames being changed as they didnt want to waste time on a boss they previously had on farm). And while killing icc25 hc bosses might not be the complete pinnacle, which it maybe should be, anymore, I found myself absolutely loving speedkills, as they definitely still require you to minmax as much as possible and if you feel like it's too easy: drop a healer and get a better time.
tldr: I kill lod weekly and am fortunate enough to have been part of many rank 1 speedkills including lod, sindy and ldw. I would definitely be happy to see some buffs to the server, but wouldnt like to see any other changes than that (except of course removing bugged timers from the leaderboard and fix undebatable ingame bugs) as I and many other people are still having a blast with it the way it is.

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Originally Posted by opexo

Loardaeron is first and foremost intended to be blizzlike as much as possible, this is why it's mostly considered hardcore, not so much because of the removed icc buffs.

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Originally Posted by opexo

It drives me crazy here is that some ppl farming lod think they're now the uber-mega playas and top of the world. And especially when these people have the nerves to tell me 'heyy this is hardcore server and not exactly retail', like... desperately reaching for the last straw and trying imply that here Lordaeron is tougher than it was on retail. No, it's not. (smack in the face)

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Lordareon was intended from the beginning to be a hardcore realm, with custom tuning to bosses, the furthest thing from "blizz-like". The only thing that isn't "blizz-like" on Lordareon, is ironically raid/boss tuning. It is unquestionably harder than "retail" (this is a bit petty because retail players obviously didn't play Ulduar on 3.3.5 patch so it's moot if you want to get technical); all WotLK raid content on Lordareon is tuned up.

Maybe you haven't been on the server long enough to remember or know, but there was a time where RDF and Heirlooms were actually disabled, because this is what people considered "hardcore", an arbitrary knee-capping of QoL changes. I am glad we are passed that point and we can enjoy these features on Lordareon. Hopefully we can get variable XP rates on Lordareon as well! :)

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Originally Posted by opexo

So with that in mind, further hardcore-ing it by modifying enrage timers more than necessary and also "tweaking" encounter abilities to your taste for 'toghness' is pulling the realm away from its intention.

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Originally Posted by opexo

It's a complete 'moo' point that because more and more guilds are gearing up and nearing LOD /and also because for a handful of guilds farming it doesn't feel challenging anymore/ icc should be hardcored ('buffed' as you say) even more.

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Originally Posted by opexo

people must really think twice "have i really reached the pinnacle of the game here to demand buffing it to suit my mega ultra skillz".

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Nobody is thinking, "wow I cleared all of the content for months upon months, I wish Warmane would buff the content so that I would have more challenge." You're completely missing the entire point of the post: the nerfing of raid content over the past couple of years have trivialized many raid encounters in ICC, to where 'end-wing bosses' are easier than non-end wing bosses, which shouldn't be a thing. Nobody is suggesting changes specifically tailored to people who are full BIS, as the bosses were tuned as I suggest returning them to when the average GS of the average player on Lordareon was 5.6, not the absurd 6.4 it is today, which were cleared every week by good players/guilds. Back in Raven when we were progressing BQL, the average GS of the raid was like 6.1k, and yet we managed to kill it and farm it, and that's back when she had 79.6m hp or whatever it was. We had to min-max and play exceptionally well for what we had to be able to put out to beat Enrage; this is the essence of a "hardcore" player.

Is Lordareon supposed to be hardcore or does successfully killing Fester HC automatically jump a guild's progression up two bosses because BQL HC is even easier than Fester HC? No boss should be "free" like this, especially an end-wing boss. Right now, there is such a massive difficulty leap from BQL HC to Sindra HC & PP HC, and that's solely because BQL has been overnerfed. BPC HC and Blood Quarter trash are unironically harder than BQL HC! Return her to 79.6m and players will have to learn to min-max their damage to be able to kill her again, instead of being a second loot table for Fester.

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Originally Posted by opexo

And coming to prove this is the actual applied fix to the mentioned encounter, so it does exactly what it was supposed to do.

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Originally Posted by opexo

Some people may know, this is one of the reasons why as many logs as possible had to be downloaded from WoL.

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Originally Posted by opexo

No, quite the opposite - Blizzard was nerfing. Oh wait, not only nerfing, but also FIXING buggy encounters, just like BQL was fixed here.

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Bug fixes are always welcome. When the bug fixes impact the encounter in a way that makes it significantly easier, on a hardcore server, something should be changed to compensate for that fix. Notice I didn't bring Professor HC into this thread. Even though Professor has been nerfed multiple times, at times losing 5 million HP in one pass, the recent bug fix to Professor's Mutated Plague damage in P3 actually made the last phase more engaging for players. Everyone has to minmax more to kill before he becomes taunt immune, play better overall to not get hit by DPS-impacting debuffs, and taunters & tanks have to be super strict about the taunts on the tank stacks because if you reach taunt immunity, it's likely it's going to be a wipe. The Professor HC fix inadvertently made last phase more punishing and therefore more difficult, a nice unintended consequence of the bug fix. In my opinion, Professor is in a nice place right now with the recent fix.

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Originally Posted by opexo

Not to a person who:
made all achievements for the drake in icc with much less than 277 BiS gear.
made all achievments for the drake in Ulduar with all 226 items gear.
made all achievments in ToGC with 245 or less items gear.
did Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, Algalon, Knock, Knock, Knock on Wood (Freya), I Choose You, Steelbreaker and all other Ulduar hardmodes before the nerfs, everything on retail, and many more. Quite frankly, icc is stupid in terms of challenge on the face of what Ulduar presented and demanded for the according gear level.

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Originally Posted by opexo

If Warmane has to do one thing is to ensure all encounters and their variations in Ulduar are scripted exactly how they were pre-nerfs on retail. And so all top playas can go in there in 226-less gear. Then we'll see who are the toughest. BQL, Sindi, PP, LK.. are all joke to some encounters in Ulduar when added the Achievment factor

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I am confused a bit by your post overall. You simultaneously deny that Lordareon is harder than "retail" and state the realm shouldn't be reflective of a 'hardcore' player base, but then come and brag about clearing older raids with less-than-BIS gear for that raid tier. You recognize that clearing content with less-than-BIS gear is something to be applauded but then simultaneously are incapable of applying this to ICC.

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Originally Posted by AkkaStyle

TL;DR Haha, you want a buff? YOU WANT A BUFF XD AChieving something in lordearon is like having a full time job, you cant do raids while chillin there without wiping for 5 hours lmao f that, if they are buffing buff them by adding new mechanics, stop making fights retaredly longer, stop multipliying their damage and HP that just stretches boss fight...

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The character selection screen specifically states Lordareon is a hardcore realm, specifically mentioning "harder PvE content" and "challenging PvE content". Why would you play here, much more level a character to 80 and beginning gearing it if this is not something you wanted? Playing more doesn't give you a stacking buff of a damage bonus or something tied to how long you've been logged in. In your instance, it appears the issue is PEBKAC, and the only solution is to, pardon my French, "git gud".

''Loardaeron is first and foremost intended to be blizzlike as much as possible, this is why it's mostly considered hardcore''

You got a pretty weird definition of hardcore, it would be as calling ''hardcore'' current TBC content where people got Magtheridon, Gruul and Karazhan done the first day those raids got released by not even everyone on the group being level 70.

Blizzlike is one thing, hardcore is a completely different one.

''This is the nature of every game.''

Yes, is the point of a game currently in development that adds new patches and content. This, of course, DOES NOT apply to a server that has been sitting in the same raid for 4 years now. ICC was intended to last for 9/12 months after release back on 2009/10 (with all the implications of how the players have changed in comparison to now).

''Not only that, i have never ever heard on retail from top guilds "heyy Blizz umm could u pls make it a bit more difficult?" No, quite the opposite - Blizzard was nerfing.''

There's a huge difference, once again, on dinamic new content when compared to static old content. Your point is completely stupid and ''top guilds'' are racing for WF/RF so they won't ask for any buff on the current raid because is just counter-intuitive.

''It drives me crazy here is that some ppl farming lod think they're now the uber-mega playas and top of the world.''
I think most people doesn't think that way and if they were, as far as I am concerned, they are random *****s.

''desperately reaching for the last straw and trying imply that here Lordaeron is tougher than it was on retail. No, it's not. (smack in the face)''
Because pre-nerf values were harder maybe? And even now ICC (as nerfed as it is) is harder than what it was on retail, there's a huge skill gap given by players just dedicating to play this expansion for years, that's all.


''Not to a person who:
made all achievements for the drake in icc with much less than 277 BiS gear.
made all achievments for the drake in Ulduar with all 226 items gear.
made all achievments in ToGC with 245 or less items gear.
did Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, Algalon, Knock, Knock, Knock on Wood (Freya), I Choose You, Steelbreaker and all other Ulduar hardmodes before the nerfs, everything on retail, and many more. Quite frankly, icc is stupid in terms of challenge on the face of what Ulduar presented and demanded for the according gear level.''

Ok, I didn't expect that flex, guess is on the same level as the *****s claiming they're good because they are able to do LOD.

On the other hand, are you an old member of ''Stars'' to claim doing Alone in the Darkness before it was nerfed? If so, lemme know, because that was the only guild able to do 0 lights pre-nerf with some very rare kiting strategy and raid comp overall.


''If Warmane has to do one thing is to ensure all encounters and their variations in Ulduar are scripted exactly how they were pre-nerfs on retail. And so all top playas can go in there in 226-less gear. Then we'll see who are the toughest. BQL, Sindi, PP, LK.. are all joke to some encounters in Ulduar when added the Achievment factor''

Just in case you didn't knew, Lordaeron had a ''pre-nerf'' Ulduar back on release that was actually hard and took people quite a lot of time to progress. Current Ulduar on Frostmourne is nerfed and still a challenge yet when you see ''top tier guilds'' they scroll through all the content you mentioned in just one day (like they did last year). If you were to bring ''pre-nerf blizzlike'' it would still be the same, content down in the first ID. Comparing 2009 to 2021 is just stupid.

@Frysharry @morfagor
ok :)

You still haven't answered. Are you a member of Stars in order to get Yogg 0 pre nerf killed?