Loot Distribution in Raids as a Loot Master

Hello Warmane Nation, Bloodbeard here. Some background information about myself; I have been playing on the Warmane Lordaeron server for over 4 years, found ran and lead a Guild to LK25HC kills, which was the Midnight Marauders Guild from Alliance. I have hosted many many raids on this server and given out much loot to many people, but I am here today to ask for clarification from the Warmane Management on loot distribution. Quite a few times as a raid leader and loot master i have found myself in a situation where people were rolling for gear they did not need and I would have to think for a few moments what to do before proceeding such as should I give him the item because he won the roll or do I not give him the item and risk being banned. I have read the thread for the ninja policy that is found here http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=65037 and the closest thing that I found to my problems are this; "- Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win, unless it's 2nd highest roll when winner had no use for the item (rogue rolling on caster trinket)." but it's not enough information. There are so many different scenarios that this information does not cover. For example I was hosting an ICC25 last night and i was rolling off nm ilvl 264 class marks, a hunter decked out in ilvl 277 T10 rolls for the mark and wins the roll when there were plenty of lowbies in the raid who could have used that mark, I asked the hunter why he needed the mark and he says "i want to start a new build" and i gave him the mark. I thought it was pretty BS by me to give him the mark but you know what it was a Pick-up Group and couldn't be bothered to risk being banned because there just simply is not enough information. I also remember one time a while ago where a retribution paladin won a roll for DBW (Deathbringer's Will) Trinket. Everyone who plays this game on a serious level knows that retribution paladins don't use the DBW trinket, but he rolled and won the roll. The raid was in a rage and so was the paladin, what is a loot master supposed to do? My request to the Warmane Staff; please give us tips on what we can do to cover ourselves and follow the right thing to do in scenarios like these. Also I request more clarity on the ninja looting policy, thank you.

Set up very specific loot rules. Retri rolling for DBW isn't anything new. We know, as players, how DBW isn't as good (or reliable) as other trinket options for Retri. Sadly, rules don't agree with us. If player can make use of the DBW, be it Retri, or Feral DPS. The one who can use it, can make use of it, and is an upgrade for the character can roll for it. On equal terms. The rules don't recognize player theorized/made priority lists, as those priority lists aren't something that are/can be found in the game.

Thanks for your reply, setting up specific loot rules is more time and more effort down the drain, I will rather not host raids at all , still waiting for an official response from Warmane themselves.

Uppgrade is uppgrade no matter if it's bis or not for whoever.
Mana per 5 sec items are healer.
Hit rating are dps (except hpala leggs and some wierd healing builds but they should let you notice first).
Spirit items goes both way.

In your case the hunter ninja the trinket for someone else or to sell it to people who needed it, if he is "decked out" allready with the best gear or the t10 pieces thats best for him (all except leggs) it will count as his "off specc". It helps a lot knowing every class and their gear table for what they need in stats / items.
Same thing applies to rogues rolling axes when their assasination for example.

There are some gray areas too imo, I been in your situation many times, like when a Hunter wins roll on Professor Putricide's leather belt, he has a Fos/Pos belt, and Retri Paladin screams ontop of his lungs, because hunter should only use mail, but it was still "uppgrade" for him, and the "bis" mail waist is really easy to get (festergut if I recall right) while the leather is bis for Retri, (hunters gets 100% int converted to attack power in talents, mail has int, leather dosent).

And I feel like a real ******* with a big noob hat on my head for giving him it but I remember the "uppgrade is uppgrade".
I macro some "/rw Loot Rules -----------" I allways post before raid nowadays and printscreen when I shout them every time before first boss pull just to be safe.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

Uppgrade is uppgrade no matter if it's bis or not for whoever.
Mana per 5 sec items are healer.
Hit rating are dps (except hpala leggs and some wierd healing builds but they should let you notice first).
Spirit items goes both way.

In your case the hunter ninja the trinket for someone else or to sell it to people who needed it, if he is "decked out" allready with the best gear or the t10 pieces thats best for him (all except leggs) it will count as his "off specc". It helps a lot knowing every class and their gear table for what they need in stats / items.
Same thing applies to rogues rolling axes when their assasination for example.

There are some gray areas too imo, I been in your situation many times, like when a Hunter wins roll on Professor Putricide's leather belt, he has a Fos/Pos belt, and Retri Paladin screams ontop of his lungs, because hunter should only use mail, but it was still "uppgrade" for him, and the "bis" mail waist is really easy to get (festergut if I recall right) while the leather is bis for Retri, (hunters gets 100% int converted to attack power in talents, mail has int, leather dosent).

And I feel like a real ******* with a big noob hat on my head for giving him it but I remember the "uppgrade is uppgrade".
I macro some "/rw Loot Rules -----------" I allways post before raid nowadays and printscreen when I shout them every time before first boss pull just to be safe.

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By rules, Holydin BiS legs are DPS legs, there's no exception. Heals don't need hit rating to heal, and they can still do their jobs with 0 hit. Even applying judgment every 45 secs.
Just because they're on one (or was it on two) healer BiS list, doesn't change the facts.

Leather belt would count as OS for Retri and Hunter. MS for Rogues/Ferals. So naturally, they would need to wait for OS roll. Same with many classes rolling for other armor pieces.

I think many here remembers the rule "Top 5 DPS DK/Fury/CRogue/Feral DPS" can roll for DBW, it's a valid rule a RL can set. If you join, you accept the rule.

This is why PUG's are "dangerous", and raiding with a guild is recommended. Some, if not most, RL's are leading with "priority lists", and often getting ninja loot bans, because they didn't fully understand how basic (default) rules works. Although, players also have been told to ask about loot rules in specific situations before joining. If you won't bother asking beforehand, you have no say in matter afterwards.

"Because I thought" and "Everybody else does that" are assumptions, not facts.

I hear you guys, it would be nice if Warmane would give us more guidelines so we don't have to worry about being banned by them.

Allright bare with me on this one.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

By rules, Holydin BiS legs are DPS legs, there's no exception. Heals don't need hit rating to heal, and they can still do their jobs with 0 hit. Even applying judgment every 45 secs.
Just because they're on one (or was it on two) healer BiS list, doesn't change the facts.

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Many would argue about that but talking min maxing and different scenarious in boss fights here and there would take whole day, It is widely accepted though, but yes, I also use haste / crit leggs for my hpala cause there are times you can judgement, you just need to know when so you dont use a global cd at wrong time, cause you dont even have 1 sec to waste about 98% of the time when your up against halion 25 hc last phase, and in general many boss fights you dont have that 1 second, Many poor tanks have died by my descision to fit a extra judgement for JoL ego healing or poor divine plea timing.
Anyhow, you say "by rules"? I have yet to se such rules from warmane.
I know it comes of a little hypocrisy after saying "hit = dps" myself but I do belive there are 1-2 exceptions in general whats accepted or not.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

Leather belt would count as OS for Retri and Hunter. MS for Rogues/Ferals. So naturally, they would need to wait for OS roll. Same with many classes rolling for other armor pieces.

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For Hunters I agree, one of my /rw specifically mentions hunters only get leather if no one needs for ms, but for Retri paladins no, Agility items in general makes a huge difference, to an extent where people still argue today about adding more leather / mail gear, whatever bis lists say.
Everyone and all bis list I saw was strenght 100% for retri paladins when I made my paladin in 2010 and it was like that for a VERY long time before people realised agility gave much more then anyone ever thought, hidden stats and all that. It wasent even that long time ago that everyone started using mail gloves instead of strength gloves. Anyhow to some degree you are right about other classes, it is only in fact at end game gear you start do more dps with the agility for DK and Warr, but should they be forced to pass a bis item cause their not geared enough yet, slippery slope of "what if's" there I think.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

This is why PUG's are "dangerous", and raiding with a guild is recommended. Some, if not most, RL's are leading with "priority lists", and often getting ninja loot bans, because they didn't fully understand how basic (default) rules works. Although, players also have been told to ask about loot rules in specific situations before joining. If you won't bother asking beforehand, you have no say in matter afterwards.

"Because I thought" and "Everybody else does that" are assumptions, not facts.

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The biggest issue though is, there is no set rules in stone about many of these player made opinions and there can't be, even the rule like this one that seems fairly simple right? -
"- Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in."
Just yesterday a new scenario came up that I stopped to think about, Professor Putricide 25 Pug run, Offtank took abom, random guy wanted to do quest screamed to people to dispel abo and they did, he took it, OT came out screaming WTF dispel abo Im abo" 4 dipels went out all from 3 different paladins.
We killed PP and leader kicked all 3 paladins, without handling out any loot before, even when they all said it was a misstake and they had no idea what was going on cause it was chaotic, Leader was a paladin himself and he wanted extra chanse to win the conq heroic mark I thought, but the raid kicks themselves was justified wasent it, Isn't trying to wipe and destroy a raid infact is if not THE biggest "reason" for a kick? but you cant tell, who dispelled who, all skada and recount said was "dispelling abo". If I personally was a GM and seeing a solid ticket checking all the markers of being valid, it would be very hard to se the reason behind the kick, specially when the guy who was kicked made the report, and left out that part from print screen "proof". So lead would have to make printscreen to provide his innocence just incase he gets banned (gotta think ahead, how many pug leads do you think does this?) and need to make an appeal, and at this point we can all agree, this scenario has the word messy written all over it, and it would not be supprising if GM just dont wanna touch this at all or give a bann that most people would consider not deserved.

Point is, there's been MANY of these very different ways of ninja/opinions on gear/ bis lists/kicking for "reasons" in raids that makes it almost damn near impossible to make rules and decisions for deserved ban as a GM, at the same time as it's needed, player made problems are at the end the most difficoult to deal with.

PS in the end priest won conq mark but Leader stole it, but thats besides the point.

I started to realize that this server has more and more njina looters than ever before. Everyday I hear in chat: ''this guy looted everything and still plays, don't join his raid''. Yeah.

As for DBW, I once lost it as a ret paladin and that was a huge upgrade for me since I had useless trinkets. Once I won the roll, everybody started bashing how it's useless on me and leader shouldn't give it to me. Won square and fair but people wanted 1 more roll (so they can try to win again).

I was like... alright let it go screw these players. Then guess who won dbw? Enchantment shaman. Yes that's right, he won this item with minimum effor and then he instantly left the raid.

But in the end I did get my revenge on these players by rolling on the normal sanctified marks. I rolled and got 3 marks in my inventory even tho I cannot upgrade anything anymore (my whole gear was sanct). So I was happy to take these items away from them.

Oh you think this was bad? How about when the bis ret back was dropped from gunship 25hc? Hahha, you roll for it but nah someone who is bis at hpala wants this item as well for his ''OS''. Like I get it, you changed your ''MS'' to ret but come on, who needs it more? You who will never raid as a ret in the next 6-12 months or me who is actually doing dps and helping the raid?

We rolled and both got 96 on the roll. We rolled again and he lost the roll. Then he got pissed off and left the raid at valitria. Literal scumbags.

3rd Scenario: Marks (normal) drop and leader of the raid didn't want to give them to anyone WHO DOESN'T OWN T10 SPEC IN FRONT OF HIS EYES. If you couldn't show him that, he wouldn't give them out.

4rd Scenario: Bis weapon axe for rouge drops BUT NO NO, hunter wants this as well!!! He says that one hand + one hand is better than 2h due to 0.0001% increased stat. He had bis polearm but he needed that axe.

So he tried to steal it from me but thankfully leader was conscious and gave item to me.

All in all, pugs are damn cancer and should be avoided unless you are a friend of leader so you can trust him.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

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The "rules" I speak of, are the same rules that aren't written anywhere, but we are meant to follow them. The untold rules of RDF, which, I assume, are applied to PUG's to some degree.

Why would you allow only Retri to roll leather belt (beyond leather classes), and say no to hunter, warrior, enha shaman? Agi, crit, arp, sounds like a dream item for a Warrior. Would you allow Druids, Shamans and Holy Paladins to roll lower armor tier items? Cloth users sure are thrilled. How would that be fair, you'd still let Retri roll a leather belt? This is why there shouldn't be exceptions, if one exception is made, why few others can't be made too? Or is it just convenient for you (not you specifically) to say who can roll what. I'd imagine the staff do apply some RDF ninja rules when dealing with some PUG ninja reports. This is why, IMHO, whatever are the rules of RDF rolls, should apply generally to PUG's. RL's are the ones who then can make the specific rulings (BoE reserve, No DBW for Retris, but they can roll PP leather belt).

Anybody can make a BiS list and post it on the forum. Fury with a staff? BiS list coming right up. Melee Frost Mage? Glad you asked!
There are BiS lists for Full STR Paladin, as well as Agiladin. Do you ever specify which BiS list you're going for when joining a PUG? Exactly. 2p, 4p Assassination/Combat? Or just conveniently switch the list, if more items drops for other set? Or roll for both? Nobody asked anyway.

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Originally Posted by OhieMitzen

The "rules" I speak of, are the same rules that aren't written anywhere, but we are meant to follow them. The untold rules of RDF, which, I assume, are applied to PUG's to some degree.

Why would you allow only Retri to roll leather belt (beyond leather classes), and say no to hunter, warrior, enha shaman? Agi, crit, arp, sounds like a dream item for a Warrior. Would you allow Druids, Shamans and Holy Paladins to roll lower armor tier items? Cloth users sure are thrilled. How would that be fair, you'd still let Retri roll a leather belt? This is why there shouldn't be exceptions, if one exception is made, why few others can't be made too? Or is it just convenient for you (not you specifically) to say who can roll what. I'd imagine the staff do apply some RDF ninja rules when dealing with some PUG ninja reports. This is why, IMHO, whatever are the rules of RDF rolls, should apply generally to PUG's. RL's are the ones who then can make the specific rulings (BoE reserve, No DBW for Retris, but they can roll PP leather belt).

Anybody can make a BiS list and post it on the forum. Fury with a staff? BiS list coming right up. Melee Frost Mage? Glad you asked!
There are BiS lists for Full STR Paladin, as well as Agiladin. Do you ever specify which BiS list you're going for when joining a PUG? Exactly. 2p, 4p Assassination/Combat? Or just conveniently switch the list, if more items drops for other set? Or roll for both? Nobody asked anyway.

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As for RDF item that's a whole different story but when it comes to the "best" items in game that's what I think about.

Hunter and Enhancement shaman gets 100% intellect converted to Attack Power from their talents so leather is a "no go" unless no one needs and they have such bad item that it is actually better still, Warrior uses leather with Haste in it due to how overpowered haste becomes at end game gear, as example there is no Plate gloves with "arp - haste - crit" in icc 25 or rs 25, so its calculated to bring better dps then any other plate hands in game, thats why they go for the rotface gloves, same applies to Frost DK, but both Warrior and DK stand short in terms of what they get from Agility, Ret paladins scale a ridiculous ammount from agility items.

And yeah same goes for cloth items for plate / leather / mail healers, Cloth or Leather wrists with haste / crit from Ruby Sanctum 25 Heroic is bis for almost every single class that can use it. Does it suck for all the mages, priests, warlocks who keeps loosing haste / crit boots from Fester? hell yeah it sucks specially when the Resto shaman gets it, but its the best item for him too in a PvE oriented gameplay, Armor is something people only start prio in PvP (unless ur a tank).

Yes anyone can make a bis list but the once that actually are true has hundreds of thousands of views instead of thirty, There has been a lot of discussion before when it comes to "bis" but in the end only 1 set of gear 1 set of talents are best, STR Paladins for example are not "best", Agility is better, so you can say "STR pala build" but not "STR pala bis list" anyhow I just started play my retri paladin after a long break and it does A LOT less dmg then it used to so who the hell knows, maybe STR is the better choice now after the nerfs it had.

Inspect the guy and see if it's an upgrade when you scan his gear. If it is, even if it's a small one, he gets it. Not much to it. It's not your job as a pug raid leader to play Loot Council and decide who "deserves it" most. If you want to, you're free to specify that in your loot rules (it's your raid, you can specify whatever you want), but that's not an expectation. It doesn't matter if the healer is rolling on a hit item if it's like 45 ilvls above what he's actually got.

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Originally Posted by Shiruba

Inspect the guy and see if it's an upgrade when you scan his gear. If it is, even if it's a small one, he gets it. Not much to it. It's not your job as a pug raid leader to play Loot Council and decide who "deserves it" most. If you want to, you're free to specify that in your loot rules (it's your raid, you can specify whatever you want), but that's not an expectation. It doesn't matter if the healer is rolling on a hit item if it's like 45 ilvls above what he's actually got.

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Issue is that some people are using tactics to make their gear look way terrible than what they actually are.

I had once in the raid a guy who dropped his almost bis items to some trash low gear items and rolled for the items that were like 10gs better than his. Raid leader believed he really didn't have anything better.

Or the famous voa25 thing, if wratfhul drops --> I drop all my pvp gear and pretend I have nothing so I can again roll and win wrathful piece and then sell it to others for gold.