WotLK - Raid compositions: The rogue, feral cat hate (Serious topic)

**Fluffybully** · December 3, 2015

Ola,

Please read everything before replying and mods please keep this thread off trash/troll/flame posts

I've been playing here on this server for a year and I'm getting frustrated by the same thing as I did on my prev server, aka why the hell are raid groups in the "hardcore" guilds like Aurora, TFK etc.. 25/75(melee/ranged) ratio with 0-1 feral cats and/or max 1 rogue?

So far I've got some answers like:
- Rogues/feral cats bring nothing useful to a raid and take spots for those who bring usefull **** to raid
- Rogues/feral cats do low dmg aka "can't carry"
- More melee tends to pressure healers to much aka we take more dmg
- Rogue/feral cat is useless/garbage/trash
- Rogue/feral cat players are bad as fuk(they can't play their class in PvE)

I've been played rogue on retail since vanilla till the release of Trial of the Crusader and in what ever 25 raid I was there it was always a close 50/50% dps/rdps ratio with rogues and kittys being the most wanted class, even in ICC since I did maintain contact with my friends + yt vids ofc.

But here on Warmane It's simply unrealistically damn hard to get into a raid with my rogue let's not even talk about players who'd like to go feral cat... and I'm not a **** one even tho I started to think that I am. The more ranged part is understandable at LoD but even here I mean c'mon..? 4 hunts, 3 spriest etc.. just to abuse the hell outa the transition phase cuz apparently a 15 min enrage timer with 30% dmg buff is not enuf.

From my point of view as I see it, either u pick a rdps to get an insta raidd invite or u may asslick the hellouta of an officer for a mdps invite or possibly even start bribing them to get a rogue or feral cat inside.

Now for the answers that I've gotten so far.

Rogues and ferals ain't useless!! Yes it's true they're pure DPS classes but they do their job just fine it worked on retail it can work here. Rogues giefs you 4% dmg increase in combat spec + an aggro + dmg increase spell every 30 sec aka TotT and yes WE CAN TOTT THE DAMN TANK at beginning it's not just hunters who can do that. If ya telling me that getting free dmg and aggro for 6 sec(10 with glyph) is useless then I'm sorry but I can't comprehend your thinking. And yes you can get every buff in the raid even with rogues and feral cats.

Rogues and ferals can't carry. Man I've heard this so many times and it sickens me. You have a 30% buff in ICC, 70% of the raid is BiS in LoD/RS raids and I'm told that ~18k+ is not enuff? Yes rogues do ~20% less dmg than they're supposed to but feral cats work as far as I know just fine and they stomp recounts. With 30% buff even frost mages would work as you need on average ~12k dps for LoD.

Melees tend to pressure healers and are dying a lot more than ranged. Please.. really? I can play my hunt and stand in marrowgar's flame just as much as I do on my rogue, the only exception is sindragosa and bpc and even here with 10% brain usage u can't take more dmg than a ranged dps does. No you don't need 3 spriests to keep up with the healing that's just BS, if a 50/50 dps/rdps ratio worked on retail LoD with 5 healers it can work here as well where it's even easier due to 30% buff and half the stuff being broken.

Rogues and ferals're trash and players're terrible with them on top of it. Yes I know 1 outa 400 rogues/cats is decent here but hey how the fk are they supposed to learn how to play them when they can't get their favorite class in the raid? Those guys who're good surely can take few mins to tell them how to get good. Yes I also know you need gear to be useful but so does every other class right? Even if ya ain't BiS u can do more dps than most of the classes with the same ilvl/gs.

So for all the officers and other high ranked members in guilds. Please tell me why rogues/ferals are not in raids, why you must run the 25/75 ratio raid comps. If it's for nothing else than abusing the LK fight or because you've seen terribad players or got random hate toward melee and are just denying players to play a melee class for other random reasons please tell me.

I just want to play like I did on retail with 2-3 rogues/cats/dks per raid w/o having to *** lick someone + to let us melees actually play the class we like instead of being forced to be a hunter/mage or gtfo from the guild/raid. And as a rogue myself bringing some yellow color + kittys in the raid is awsm.

Thank you for reading. If you're an officer/gm of an guild and will change the private server/guild mentality of 25/75 ratio raid comps to ~50/50 I salute you.

tl;dr if this worked on retail http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000(Paragons world 1st 25hc LK kill) why can't it work here and only this or close to this must be http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

p.s If I offended some1 in some way I kinda don't care :).
p.p.s sorry for mah grammar skills

**~~Selaya~~** · December 3, 2015

Rogues were bugged to hell and beyond until recently, so it`s mostly a relic from those archaic times, which also left with none of the well decent players playing a Rogue. As a matter of fact, Assa Rogues are still bugged to hell and back. TL;DR Rogue players left Molten a long time ago because they were **** until recently.

As for Ferals, they don`t really bring anything to the raid (besides the 30% bleed buff and ****ty offheals), plus being a rather hard-to-play class thats further suffering from certain Moltenfeatures (PP). So, yeah.

**Smoq** · December 3, 2015

Well ferals bring same 5% crit u get off a warrior Selaya. and since other warrior buffs are replaced by Gbom / Imp ... means Warriors are not viable inraids? every BUFF has usually 2 classes that can supply it. so think. rogues boost tanks threat, damage of melee's, support some CC etc etc. with a burst of AoE if needed. so they are just as viable as any class. ferals give 5% crits, bleeds, VATE / CMB RESS. so... GG sir.

using those inraids isnt an insta wipe.

/cheerz

**~~Selaya~~** · December 3, 2015

I was talking about unique buffs.

**Fluffybully** · December 3, 2015

Like I said yea rogues still do ~20% less DPS than they're supposed to. But newbish rogues can still be taught how to play same goes for feral cats. But one can't learn how to play it if he can't be in the raid and see the difference between him and the guy that actually knows how to play it right? The feral bleed buff is awsm for rogues as u can go rupture rotation safely and not depend so much on rng for eviscerate crits. PP is a tank and spank fight anyway so I don't see the problem not bein able to dps properly on 1 boss. Retail comps had no probs with ferals in raid groups so why is it a problem here if it doesn't bring anything besides the bleed buff?

But still u can't play a rogue or feral either when raid groups're dps ratio 25% mdps and 75% rdps and that's the thing that bothers me the most ;_;

I'd like to see some replies from guys like Leulz and Shashank aka the guild bosses

**Beanlord** · December 3, 2015

< Not a guild boss, but core in <Encore> / <Solace> from pre-wipe. We haven't really had this issue (most of our raids have had at least 1 feral/rogue) since they actually do boost melee dmg. But that doesn't answer your question, so here goes nothing:

The way I see it, and probably most other people is not that the DPS of a feral/rogue is bad (I've seen some very good and consisntant performances by rogues/ferals) but rather there are classes, such as a priest that brings a lot of buffs, along with passive healing, +3% hit, replenishment, mediocre dps (compared to say a warrior), can soak on LK (and soak quite a bit and frequently enough), can also off-heal if need be, also brings Divine hymp and Hymp of Hope, the latter being a greatly admired mana regen tool.

The other ranged classes are also good, boomkin will generally be preferred over a feral, for example, because +3% hit, +13% magical dmg increase (on a target), bress (feral has one too yes I AM aware), a stronger innervate, typhoon (this is a very important spell as I'm sure you know).

And since a warrior provides same buff that feral does (+5% crit, no bleeds tho [which affect only a handful of classes]) and does more dmg than a feral, chances are a war would be more favoured from melees.
A paladin will be more favoured cuz it's just an incredible utility class with high damage capabilities.
Dks, in general, will be taken due to their ability to soak a LOT on LK and the fact that they also provide some specific buffs and some can outdps a feral (I've done it and I'm sure I'm not the only one, a good feral mind you).
At least 1 mage will always be taken cuz of a class specific buff + very high damage.
A wlock will always be taken due to SP buff + mediocre to very high damage.
Hunters will always be taken cuz utility + currently higher than their usual, but still pretty high damage.

TL:DR
The point I'm trying to make is the following:
Other classes are taken due to same/~the same damage capabilities but with more utility while still maintaining the same buffs provided by a feral. A combat rogue, at least in my opinion, will be more favoured than a feral, because they and Awars are the only specs on their respective classes that provide +4% phys damage. And with Awars being well pretty sub-par compared to fury, the choice is clear.

**Fluffybully** · December 4, 2015

Yeah I know but you don't have to bring 3-4 spriest and 2-3 boomkins their typhoon wasn't supposed to hit the vile spirits either way as they're in air but yeah it's a private server where things that can be abused're abused the hell outa it... The lock can use CoE for the 13% dmg increase as well. So you do get the same needed buffs w/o the need to have 14 rdps right? Paragon did LoD with more mdps than rdps and they had zero trouble with mana or buffs even w/o the buff same for Halion. I don't mind if it's more retris or dks but at least I'd like to have 2 rogues and 1 cat for the tott trade and bleed buff for rupture.

What I am actually asking is why not ~50/50 rdps mdps ratio, cuz that's the main reason we rogues and cats're let outa the raids... I just dun see the point of having 4 hunts and spriests in every raid. Yea I know it's easier but where's the challenge then?

**Maniacofpeace** · December 4, 2015

First of all, you can't even begin to equate Warmane "top" guilds with retail ones. Especially when those "top" guilds are a selectively hand-picked sample from one server. Using the class favoritism of those guilds as a reflection of what classes do and do not perform well would be ill-advised. Did you know <Royal Bloodline> on Deathwing pretty much basically never runs without at least 1 Feral DPS among the melee? Did you know that those Ferals often beat the other melee in DPS, despite those melees being some of the best players on the server, because those Feral players know their class inside-out? If those guilds you mentioned are going out of their way to avoid bringing Feral druids, then they're simply awful.

Feral druids bring the following:
- 30% increased bleed damage (this alone should make them mandatory if you're looking to maximize raid DPS at all, unless there's a bear tank)
- Improved Leader of the Pack healing
- Innervates
- Brez (especially useful in 3.3.5 where there's no cap on the amount of targets per encounter you can brez)
- Probably the best mobility in the game
- Excellent personal DPS if the player is good
- Amazing utility in the form of Bear Form + taunt in a sticky situation. You're automatically def-capped and Bear Form's innate armor bonuses means even heroic LK doesn't one-shot you. Then you also have defensive CD's to improve your tankiness until a tank is brezzed.

They are, however, one of the hardest specs in the game to master and perform well on.

I should also point out that Molten bugs (specifically Defile, because of how quickly it not only spreads, but is also casted a bit sooner than it should be, giving its target less time to distance himself from the raid), severely favor RDPS on LoD. Most guilds favoring RDPS on this encounter is just an adaptation to how defile works currently. A legitimate strategy that involved killing Valkyrs every time would also tend to heavily favor cleaving classes - and that's an area where MDPS tend to heavily outshine RDPS.

Also, combat rogues aren't doing 20% less damage than they should be, or whatever number you think that is, nor is there any proof at all that they are.

**Fluffybully** · December 4, 2015

I am well aware that good feral druids are usually top 5 on recounts saw plenty of them myself. I am playing on Ragnaros realm with TFK as my guild so I don't know for Deathwing. For the rogue part rogues should be above hunters and on pair with good feral cats. I can't sustain 22k+ for that I'd need above average RNG while hunters usually do that with ease. So it's either other classes do way to much dmg or it's the rogue that aint' doing enuf.

But yeah the bleed is love for me at least. Getting up to 40k dmg per rupture is sweet instead of the average 15k eviscerates whilist rupure's gona be 25k+

Off topic:
I've checked some of your vids yea u do usually bring 1 cat but still I find your lack of rogues disturbing :)

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WotLK - Raid compositions: The rogue, feral cat hate (Serious topic)

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