WotLK Is this raid ninja looting?

[JoMiranda]

I was in a raid last night led by a leade. He was also running his alt , which was just sitting there doing nothing. I’m not totally new, but I’m still kinda inexperienced and he knew that

We got to the 8th boss, and up until then, we had a few wipes but things were going ok. Tbh I was kinda proud because it was my first time healing a raid and I was 2nd on heals, with low gear, no deaths as well.

Then I made a mistake and wiped for the first time, I didn't mean it was just confused, and he kicked me right after—before I could even loot all the items drops until 8th boss! Pretty sure it was and excuse just to give a better shot at rolls. Stayed up way too late for that raid, and now I’m wondering if this is even bannable or this is the community working as it is.

Does this count as ninja looting?

[Khapam]

It does count as ninja but for the GMs to take action they will a loot more than just your side of the story.
People causing problems in a raid without even being aware that they are causing serious problems is a very common and valid kick reason.

As for example as a raid leader i can tell the reason to kick was:

-Underperforming: Valid kick reason, most of players don't realize they are underperforming because they don't know what a good performance is.
-Ninjapullers: Valid kick reason, you undermine the quality of the pull by doing so, everytime you wipe at 1% (which is common) you could argue that if they didnt ninjapull and everyone started at the same time with prepotions they could have defeated the boss making the ninjapull the reason you wiped.
-Troublemakers: People constantly complaining and causing tension is a very valid reason to kick someone.
-Constantly AFK during trash clears or even bosses: Valid kick reason.
-Lying about your gear score: Self explainatory but if you manage to sneak into the raid without the leader noticing you are bellow the gear score asked you definitely will get kicked without any loot.
-Not knowing the bosses mechanics: Learning is for guilds, pugs have all the right to kick someone that doesnt meet the required experience. Nobody want to carry a noob just to get his gear taken by the noob when rolling, earn your stuff we are not daddy and mommy to grab your hand a put clothes on you.
-Not following raid calls: Stoped counting how many ret palas ive seen replaced for not using their spells when called.


Theres a loot more but if the kick was 100% to increase their chances when rolling you would need a whole video from the whole raid to prove they don't have any of the above reason to kick you.

[OhieMitzen]

Whatever you consider to be "valid" reason for a kick, it needs to be stated in raid rules. How would you even specify under performing? Is the 5K GS player who lied about their GS but still blends in with the 6K GS players in terms of performance the issue, or is the issue with the 6K GS players who are "under performing"? Or is the BiS Fury who is still #1 DPS in the raid, but could easily pull +1K DPS more under performing? Are healers under performing when none of them have huge HPS, but nobody died during an encounter or two? Are trouble makers those who call out others' bad actions, or those who defy your illogical logic, or weird stance on how spirit items are for healers only (when even that wasn't specified in rules).

You need to roll loot that a soon-to-be-removed player is eligible for before you actually remove them.

[Arbiterone]

Probably best that a raid leader should roll items from previous killed bosses before kicking anyone.

[JoMiranda]

So, one guy actually saw what happened, he was streaming and sent me the video so I could use it as proof. I linked the video in the ticket.

Now, I'm not going to show it because I know that if I do, I'll be the one getting into trouble.

But here's what happened:

1- The raid leader ignored my highest roll once (full disclosure: I rolled on a leather sp/intellect item as a Shaman healer). His carry was also a shaman and in the video you can see him rolling both cloth and leather.

2- The raid leader kicked me after I failed a mechanic on the 8th boss. I hadn’t failed anything until then, was the second best healer in the last fight, and he knew it was my first time in ICC 25 (I even said it in raid chat, and you can see it in the video). He was actually nice up until that point, giving me tips before fights (though not for the mechanic I failed), so he KNEW I was new.

Before I caused that wipe, there had already been four wipes with no kicks. Even his carry messed up a quest for all players, and he just said in raid chat, "Don't be toxic, we're doing good."

After all this, Warmane decided that this was a valid reason for a kick and that it wasn't ninja looting.

I don't even care about the loot—I just want to know that this kind of behavior isn't acceptable and that I can at least record raids and submit a ticket if something like this happens again.

But to be honest, if this is the community and these are the rules of this server, I might as well find somewhere else to play.

[SoundLogic1992]

kicking for mistake is normal , but if you get kick and you wont get able to roll on items that was droped its must be ban for the raid leader , from my side perma on account , from warmane gm i gues they dont care.

[JoMiranda]

Exactly.Kick me out of the raid all you want. But respect the players. If I was good enough to help kill 7 bosses I shouls have the decency to roll on those items. We all are human beings in the other side.

[arcsperia]

That will never be bannable offense here or anywhere else, unless you can prove that you were kicked before rolling items for no reason

[JoMiranda]

No reason and valid reason are 2 different things.
If the raid already had 4 wipes with no kicks, a kick on the 5th wipe is not a valid reason.
Unless the reason can be anything the raid leader decides to do.

[SoundLogic1992]

There not a single reason to get loot ban from early boss if you was warned after they dead.

[JoMiranda]

So far I had no luck with GMs. I'm still considering I didn't explain the situation good enough and reopened the ticket, but they are taking the side of the raid leader and even said the kick was justified so preventing the rolls wasn't ninja looting. If there is any news I'll update here. If this won't get resolved I guess this is it for me tbh.

Also, for **** sake, he could just have explained me that tact and we could redo it. I don't understand why people need to be that cold with people they are sharing a game with.

[OhieMitzen]

reopened the ticket, but they are taking the side of the raid leader

or the evidence provided wasn't irrefutable.

I don't think RL needs to explain anything really. If they wanted to educate people, they would do some education run. A basic PUG isn't the best place to learn as you're expected to know the tactics as you have achievements.

I don't understand why people need to be that cold with people they are sharing a game with.

Because it consumes their time also. They have no obligation to use their time to educate people, if they did, they'd be "forced" or expected to dedicate their time on randoms that don't even bother giving a thanks.

[JoMiranda]

This is not about the kick is about a player being able to refute loot from 7 raid bosses to another player with no consequences.
Already talked to 2 GMs with no positive feedback.
The video is an unedited stream of the raid with full chat visible, HD.
I'm still waiting on the response of 1 GM and will post here if it was favorable or not.

[arcsperia]

There is no consequence because you have no proof that he took loot for himself, after all he is the one who hosted the raid and he can kick whoever he wants on 1st wipe or 10th wipe. You might failed to follow the simple mechanic of the boss and caused raid wipe, thats perfectly valid reason to get kicked, ive been in countless raids with wipes and 0 kicks but when someone ****s up really hard, its bye bye

[JoMiranda]

It doesn't matter if he took the loot for himself or not, or if he wanted to give someone else a better chance. It doesn't even matter if he just didn't care.

I have proof, in the exact format Warmane requires, that I was kicked from a raid after downing 7th bosses and that the rolls happened without me there.

He willingly prevented me from rolling, even though I had the right to do so. I even whispered him asking me to inv me back for the rolls at least. This should not be acceptable. There are rules in this game, and there's a person behind each character who is committing their time and deserves respect. This is not an Eve-like anarchy sandbox.

At the end of the day, he was a more experienced player than I am, and he knew the GMs wouldn't care about this.