RDF deserter debuff

**Kovachut** · May 19, 2020

Hi all.

I have a question. How does the deserter debuff work currently? Like I know, that if I leave a group prematurely, I will get a debuff, which will last for 30 minutes and will prevent me from entering another dungeon, until it expires. In the past if I had left a group with 3 or less people, I wouldn't get it. I know this was changed recently. Yesterday I was in a rdf party, where 3 of its people left. I decided to leave too and got the debuff. Ok, it was expectable. But today I left a rdf group with 3 people in total and I didn't get the debuff?

I'm confused. How does the deserter debuff have to work, if there are 3 or less people in a group?

**Thorbjorn** · May 19, 2020

When you enter a dungeon you get a 15 minute CD that's supposed to encourage you to finish the dungeon and not leave right away.
If you leave the group you get a 30 minute Dungeon Deserter debuff that prevents you from joining dungeons. If 2 people left the dungeon group and there's 3 of you left, you can leave the group and you will not get the 30 minute debuff. However, you might still have the 15 minute dungeon cooldown which starts from the moment you enter RDF.

**Kovachut** · May 19, 2020

@Thorbjorn

Yes, thanks for the reminder. But yesterday I didn't get the 15 min CD, but rather the real deserter debuff despite there being only 2 ppl in the party (me included). I'm certain of this. I remember having to wait 30 mins before I queued again.

Anyway, I would like to ask another question - IF the same thing occurs to me again, i.e. getting 30-min deserter despite there being 3 or less ppl in the party, and I actually take a screenshot of this happening, should I report it as a bug in the bugtracker?

**Thorbjorn** · May 19, 2020

Originally Posted by Kovachut

@Thorbjorn
the same thing occurs to me again, i.e. getting 30-min deserter despite there being 3 or less ppl in the party, and I actually take a screenshot of this happening, should I report it as a bug in the bugtracker?

If you figure out in which cases it happens, sure. But I fear it might end up like this report: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/50564 - Dismissed.

**Kovachut** · May 19, 2020

Originally Posted by Thorbjorn

If you figure out in which cases it happens, sure. But I fear it might end up like this report: https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/50564 - Dismissed.

I just looked at the screenshots in the linked bug report. WoW, that's weird. I'm surprised, that the report got dismissed despite the clear evidence. Maybe the bug fixed itself with a later update or idunno. Thanks for sharing it.

I honestly don't know what had caused the bug on my side. I can just speculate. But knowing it's a bug, next time I should try taking a screenshot of the 3- or less man party before I decide to leave it and see whether the bug would pop up again.

I'm using this post as a draft. Please ignore, kthx.

Spoiler: Show

19. CLIPPING DOTS

Spoiler: Show

Disclaimer: This subsection contains rather niche stuff which would mostly be of interest to dedicated min-maxers. If you're (relatively) new to this spec, and/or you want to play it rather casually, you can do yourself a favour and close this spoiler.

I. General overview

Most of the time, refreshing our bleeds prematurely would be considered a misplay. This is true under normal circumstances:

When we clip DoTs, not only do we fail to utilise their full effects, but we also increase the time between two ticks. This is bad because we could deprive ourselves of potential tick damage, and we would have less energy to spare with the more ticks we clip in the long run. For example, clipping Rake thrice forces you to invest 35 additional energy in this bleed, which could have been used on a Shred. However, this assumes that there are no forced interruptions to our abilities coming from external sources - e.g. Heigan's dance in Naxx, Yogg-Saron's lunatic gazes in Ulduar, Anub's submerge phases in ToGC, the LK's Frostmourne chambers in ICC, Halion's low corporeality % in RS etc. Knowing that we don't always have the luxury of dealing with optimal conditions (i.e. attacking the same mob 24/7), we need to accept the fact there could be exceptions to this rule. In the next paragraphs, I'll further elaborate on this concept.

II. Clipping Rip

Disclaimer: Due to a bug fix in 2023, clipping Rip is a lot harder now because you can't overwrite the bleed with an inferior version. If you try to do so, you'd get the error message "A more powerful spell is already active". Contrary to popular belief, this restriction is not a bug since it had existed back on retail WotLK. If you want to clip Rip at all, the new iteration either needs to be as strong as the previous one or stronger. Simply put, if you cast Rip with no temporary AP, Strength, Agility, or "damage increase" buffs, the game would allow you to refresh it prematurely whenever you desire. However, if your previous Rip was snapshotted with a temporary buff, and you don't have it anymore, you need to wait for the bleed to expire before you cast it again. If this is not possible due to a boss mechanic, then you either need to cast FB or to refresh SR (assuming it's going to expire soon). I'm aware that the current behaviour of Rip significantly diminishes the value of the information in this subsection.

Rip is the least controversial bleed to clip in non-linear fights. This is because, even if you deprive yourself of 1-2 ticks, this ability would still remain stronger than the rest in your arsenal. Clipping Rip would allow you to fill gaps (i.e. idle periods) in boss fights which would normally be out of your reach. Think of Professor Putricide for a moment. Imagine that an ooze is about to spawn soon, and you have 5 CPs. You can clip a few Rip ticks, switch to the ooze, dps it for a bit, and go back to the boss, so that you extend the duration of Rip and apply it once again when it expires. In terms of damage output and DPE-ratio, clipping Rip would be a more desirable play in comparison to using FB. Here's the best way to clip this finisher:

If the duration of this bleed has an odd number before the decimal separator, like 1.8 seconds, 1.5, or 3.7 etc, that's the perfect time after the tick when you could do it. If it's an even number like 2.6 or 0.7, consider whether you can afford to stay a bit longer on the boss and clip Rip after the tick registers.

Of course, this is the simplest explanation why refreshing Rip prematurely is good. In reality, there are various factors that determine how many ticks you can afford to clip, those being:

attacking one mob or hard switching between two;
your current gear (presence of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=39757 and 2pt7, current amount of Arp etc;
duration of the idle time (whether or not you'd overflow your energy afterwards and whether or not the clipped Rip would expire).

There are also factors that discourage this play even in the presence of an idle period, like:

SR is going to expire soon (you should keep your CPs for it);
Rip's remaining uptime during that idle period;
refreshing Rip would trigger your trinkets and waste their procs unnecessarily (whether you'd lose, say, 1-2 seconds or the whole duration of the trinket proc would matter).

Now, I'm not going to bother you with any mathematical calculations, as I've already written them in my other thread ("Nuances in feral cat's gameplay"), but I'm going to give you a couple of tables where you can find the information about how long the initial Rip needs to be inactive during an idle period, in order for the clip to be justified. These tables are based on the damage output of some cat abilities with the BiS lists from the respective content phases. I want to mention that during the idle time, people will cast GotW for a CC proc. If someone sits at 5 CPs and has 2pt10, upon resuming the fight, he would go Shred -> Rip. People without 2pt10 will go Rip -> Shred. As you can imagine, this determines the values in the upcoming tables.

A) Long idle time and only one mob to attack

By this, I mean a boss fight, where you have to stop attacking for a relatively long period of time either due to an AoE, a fear, or something else, and as a result you reach 100 energy regardless if you cast Shred or Rip beforehand.

The clipped Rip expires

Patch phase	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 0/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16858)	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 5/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16862)
Naxx	10 seconds	12 seconds
Ulduar	10 seconds	12 seconds
ToGC	12 seconds	12 seconds
ICC & RS	12 seconds	14 seconds

N.B.: Assuming you get a CC proc right before the idle period, and you don't have the opportunity to go Shred -> Rip, you can safely use the CC proc on Rip regardless of content patch.

Clarification:
If we clip Rip, and we don't resume dps-ing the boss within the next 19.9 seconds (2pt7)/15.9 seconds (no 2pt7), then we wouldn't be able to extend its duration with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40901. Once we go back to the boss, we'd need to generate our CPs all over again. In order for clipping Rip to be better than just casting Shred in that scenario, we have to be able to fill 12-14 seconds of its downtime. We can sacrifice as many ticks as we want, as long as we satisfy that condition.

Let me give you a quick example. Imagine that you have BiS ICC gear, and you decide to clip a Rip tick before stopping dps. Since Rip would expire in the meantime, you could only obtain 8 ticks from it (=16 seconds). Clipping a tick would net you 7 ticks (14 seconds), which would satisfy the condition in the table. If, however, you decide to clip two ticks, and Rip expires, then your net gain would be 6 ticks (12 seconds), which is lower than the number shown above, and this would be considered a misplay (assuming you have 5 FA). In that situation, casting Shred prior to the idle time would be the best play.

The clipped Rip doesn't expire

Patch phase	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 0/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16858)	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 5/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16862)
Naxx	6 seconds	8 seconds
Ulduar	6 seconds	8 seconds
ToGC	10 seconds	10 seconds
ICC & RS	10 seconds	12 seconds

N.B.: Assuming you get a CC proc right before the idle period, and you don't have the opportunity to go Shred -> Rip, you can safely use the CC proc on Rip regardless of content patch.

Clarification:
If we clip Rip, and we resume dps-ing the boss within the next 19.9 seconds (2pt7)/15.9 seconds (no 2pt7), then we would be able to extend its duration with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=40901. I've purposely added a diagram, showing how someone refreshes Rip with and without 2pt10, in order to highlight the nuance with that set bonus.

If someone doesn't have 2pt10, then he would refresh Rip with the CC proc from GotW upon resuming the fight. In that case, determining how long you need to be passive for each clipped tick would be the same as in the previous subsection. If you have, say, Ulduar gear, and you decide to clip 2 ticks, you'd have to be idle for at least 8 + 4 = 12 seconds, in order for this play to be justified.

Determining the case for someone with ICC gear would be a bit different. This is because using the CC on Rip would be a misplay in that scenario due to its cheap cost (assuming no trinket procs expiring). If someone doesn't refresh Rip prematurely, he would go Shred -> Rip after the idle period, and thus he would cast Rip with one second delay. Because of this, someone who clips Rip would get an additional second for leeway. This means that he needs to be passive for at least 12 + 2 - 1 = 13 seconds if he wants to clip a single tick or 12 + 4 - 1 = 15 seconds if he wants to clip two. Remember, the maximum idle period cannot be longer than 19.9 seconds (2pt7)/15.9 seconds (no 2pt7), else Rip would expire, and you'd have the situation in the previous subsection.

B) Short idle time and only one mob to attack

By this, I mean a boss fight, where you periodically have to stop attacking for like 5-6 seconds, and as a result you do not reach 100 energy after resuming dps. Few examples - Auriaya (getting feared w/o having a shaman in the party group), Worms in ToGC (short submerge phases) etc. This can diverge in two different cases depending on whether or not clipping Rip would force you to cast it one more time in comparison to refreshing it normally.

N.B.: This diagram shows that clipping Rip prior to a short idle period wouldn't hinder you from filling the rest of the fight with its ticks. This is possible if under normal circumstances you cannot obtain full value from this bleed before the fight concludes. Clipping Rip in those cases would earn you as much damage as many gaps there are with no drawback because you'd have the same number of Rips and thus you'd invest the same amount of energy in this bleed.

N.B.: This diagram shows that clipping Rip prior to a short idle period could lead to its premature expiration before the fight concludes. This is possible if under normal circumstances you can actually obtain full value from this bleed. In such cases, the "Rip clipper" would be forced to gather 5 CPs for it and deprive himself of a FB. Although this may sound bad at first, in reality this is still quite profitable because CPs yield more damage when they're invested in Rip in comparison to the other finisher. If this was in a linear, target-dummy boss fight w/o any mechanics, then yes - refreshing Rip prematurely would be pointless. However, when we periodically need to stop dps-ing due to an AoE or sth, and as a result our Rip's uptime suffers from it, then things are different. I'd like to mention once again that by clipping Rip we're effectively filling gaps, which otherwise would have been unreachable for us. Since we're sacrificing FB damage in favour of Rip ticks, we need to determine how many additional ticks we need to obtain in order for this play to be justified. Here are the numbers:

Patch phase	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 0/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16858)	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill (you have 5/5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=16862)
Naxx	6 seconds	6 seconds
Ulduar	6 seconds	8 seconds
ToGC	8 seconds	8 seconds
ICC & RS	10 seconds	10 seconds

N.B.: Assuming you get a CC proc right before the idle period, and you don't have the opportunity to go Shred -> Rip, DO NOT clip Rip regardless of content patch!!! Cast Shred or Rake depending on the CC priority list!

C) Target switching

In some boss encounters, we're expected to kill the adds despite being able to dps the boss. Here are some examples: PP (oozes), Lord Jaraxxus HC (misstresses, portals, and volcanos), LoD (raging spirits) etc. Since switching to a new target would remove all CPs from the boss w/o giving us anything in return, we need to decide how to utilise our CPs efficiently. Assuming that SR is not a factor worth considering and that we have 4/5 CPs, then here are my conclusions:

The clipped Rip expires

Naxx:

5 CPs: Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is clipped) > Rip (2 ticks are clipped) > ... > Rip (6 ticks are clipped) > FB

Ulduar:

5 CPs: Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is clipped) > Rip (2 ticks are clipped) > ... > Rip (4 ticks are clipped) > FB

ToGC:

5 CPs: Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is clipped) > Rip (2 ticks are clipped) > Rip (3 ticks are clipped) > FB

ICC/RS:

5 CPs: Rip (no clip) > Rip (1 tick is clipped) > Rip (2 ticks are clipped) > FB

N.B.: In case you get a CC proc before switching to the add, most of the time you'll be able to stay a bit longer on the boss. If that so happens, then go Mangle/Rake/Shred (depending on the CC priority list) -> Rip. Assuming you don't have the opportunity to play like that, you can safely use the CC proc on Rip regardless of content patch. Same goes to FB.

The clipped Rip doesn't expire

If you need to switch to an add soon, and you decide to use all of your CPs on FB, depending on your current crit you'd need either 3 CP-generators or 4 CP-generators on average to accumulate enough CPs to refresh Rip again. The lower your crit, the bigger Rip's downtime would be in that scenario. This would make clipping Rip even more profitable, as the "Rip clipper" would have plenty of gaps to fill. To understand what I mean, please look at the following diagram:

Patch phase	Downtime of Rip that you need to fill
Naxx	8 seconds
Ulduar	8 seconds
ToGC	10 seconds
ICC & RS	10 seconds

N.B.: In case you get a CC proc before switching to the add, most of the time you'll be able to stay a bit longer on the boss. If that so happens, then go Mangle/Rake/Shred (depending on the CC priority list) -> Rip. Assuming you don't have the opportunity to play like that, you can safely use the CC proc on Rip regardless of content patch. Same goes to FB.

D) In the denouement of a fight

Imagine for a bit that you're in a boss fight that reaches its end and would last no longer than, say, 17 seconds. There isn't an idle time (anymore) - just you, the common priority list, and the boss. Rip expires, and you feel good that you can fill the rest of the remaining time with Rip ticks. Now imagine that STS expires a few seconds prior to that. Since it has an ICD of 45 seconds, it won't trigger again. If you decide to clip Rip when that happens, so that you benefit from the last snapshot, you'd still have the same amount of ticks until the end in comparison to the other case, but now they would be slightly stronger (assuming STS expiring <22 seconds before the fight ends and you having 5 CPs).

III. Clipping Rake

Clipping Rake is a misplay because even if we were to sacrifice a single tick prior to an idle period, then we'd need to be passive for 9 seconds, in order to fill 6 seconds of its downtime. Since we regenerate 10 energy per second, we'd most likely reach 100 by the time we start dps-ing again, in which case the argument that this ability beats Shred in terms of "DPE values" stops being true. The DPE-approach is only relevant when energy has value, but if we reach 100 regardless what ability we use, then we only look at the damage output. Here you can observe the damage of these abilities with BiS ICC gear:

14923 AP, 76% crit, no trinket procs
Shred = 15449.57
Rake (full) = 19594.26
Rake (1 tick is clipped) = 13,581.74

13,581.74 < 15449.57

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