Why the DKP system is a fraud

[Lightforged]

Hello ladies and gents!

Before I get into this, understand that this is my preference only and I know there are others who agree with this, but does not mean I am hating on the DKP system (just don't support it), thanks :)

To fully make my point, I need to first explain how the DKP system usually works in most guilds....that being said lets begin.

The DKP system is a system to reward their players by giving points for their contribution, for example: 1 boss kill in ICC = 1DKP point
this means over time players are able to save up enough points, to the level when their able to start bidding their points on items they need against others in their guild.

But how is this bad? How does this make it a fraud?

Well to simply put it, it really is actually a good system....until it becomes abused or used for far too long. See many guilds keep on recruiting and recruiting players to join their guild, I call those players the "slaves" for a very good reason, see you can join the guild and begin to earn your DKP points just the same as the other members, however the difference is, guilds who have over 200+ members have saved up so many points that it's virtually impossible for you to compete with their amount, it's just impossible. See just because you begin to earn DKP points, doesn't mean the players who already been in that guild for longer than you have, just magically stop playing, no they still play and still earn points in addition to their months of months of DKP gathered.

But how is that a problem? Well see new comers just won't be able to catch up, or have the chance to really use their DKP points, instead you would slave for the guild for months just to get potentially 1 item....as well as don't forget priority to their ranks, the higher the rank, the higher the priority. Which means even if you manage to gather more DKP than one of their higher ranks, you will still not be able to get the item just simply because the item goes to priority....which makes it even more impossible towards their alts!?!? How on earth are you able to gather enough DKP points to compete against others who are higher rank and been gathering DKP for longer than you? You would just be simply raiding and raiding (helping the guild) trying to get your rank and points to simply get only Emblems of Frost at most.....or perhaps nothing at all depending on the type of raid. It would be a constant chase, that will lead to no where unless the old boomers in the guild decide to magically stop playing (in that case things change) but that rarely happens.

Okay okay okay....lets say guilds reset the DKP points, but does that mean players who had been grinding and grinding for months to get their "promotion" in ranks, will also lose their ranks? Well if not then how is the new comers able to get any items at all? They could have much more DKP but they'll lose their bid to a person who is just a higher rank, like an officer who is on their alt for example....

The system is great for new guilds, but is a scam to guilds who been up there for a while and have so many players with ranks that it makes it impossible for new comers to even catch up, either not enough DKP points, or just the item goes to priority rank. Remember players don't stop playing if you join the guild, you can even rank up but that would also mean they'd rank up too. Essentially as said before you would be chasing something you would not achieve...

All this of course applies to guilds who have at least over 200+ players, new guilds using the DKP system is completely understandable, but once it becomes popular, new comers would just turn into slaves helping the guild get through progression, in return of nothing basically.

[OhieMitzen]

People seem to be so scared of players with high DKP when they join a guild.
The person has high DKP, why? Let's see..
- Contributed to guild a lot by raiding.
- May not buy items often, as the DKP is stacked to high amounts.
- Forced to play a BiS characters more than alts.
- Unlucky with loots.
- Doesn't need many items.
- Doesn't use DKP in general that much (low bids/let's others have stuff).

Regardless of the game, older/long term players have some advantages against those who just joined. "Basic" 264 ilvl BoE's are large investment for a new player. For a player whom has been here for an year, or longer, it's just pocket money. How is that different from DKP in the end? You earn currency by doing something. You do something a lot and you get a lot of currency to spend.

If you want a degree fairer DKP guild, look for one with either a cap, or DKP decay, or both.

[Obnoxious]

The only fair loot method is individual loot. You have your RNG on its own and that's the only thing deciding whether you get the drop you wanted or not. It's one of the few (very, very, very few) things Blizzard ever did right in its whole history as a video game company (I don't include plagiarizing other games and relying on brand fanboyism to push it into being successful as "doing something right," no).

Of course, even that got screwed by guilds. Since that individual loot is tradable with others in the group - so you could pass on something that dropped for you but you didn't want or need - you get essentially blackmailed into giving it to "the next one in the line/the older member/the officer's fake girlfriend" or you don't get taken to raids/get kicked out of the guild. People suck and ruin everything, that's the reason no loot distribution system will ever really work until it's both individual and bind-on-acquire.

[angrylol]

No matter what kind of system you use, return of "nothing" is "nothing". That is the whole point of DKP - merit is rewarded. If you want some free gear communist guild where core members farm gear(slaves) for first week players, go ahead and make one. Lets see how long it lasts lmao.

[Lightforged]

Exactly, that's why me personally I decided to learn how to host a raid myself to make things easier...and sometimes I do join just pugs since it's just gotten me much further than progression guilds. There are of course different systems in DKP but mostly they all share the same thing......

[Lightforged]

People have just become toxic in so many ways it's sad to see, the game is just more competitive than fun :D

[angrylol]

If you look deeper, it's a mechanism to separate players who want a community from players who just want gear.

[Lightforged]

Your point in my opinion is completely invalid angrylol...here is why. You say core raiders or leaders will need to slave to get the new comers gear? but what about the contribution the new comers do by helping heal, dps or tank for that raid? I contribute myself to the raid, I deserve something from it.

That's why when I put the time and effort in making my own raid, I want to reward myself with an item by reserving it, plus I would also contribute my class to the raid too.

The DKP system quite frankly does not do that.

[angrylol]

But you get your DKP, don't you? Everyone gets the same 1 DKP for 1 boss. Exactly as player agrees when he joins. It's the same as being mad that player buys his T10 item for 95 EOF and you only have 25 EOF, but you deserve the item, because you contributed with heals and damage and what not on that one raid.

[Obnoxious]

DPK is just a system to bring pyramid schemes to World of Warcraft.
If you changed a few words from the "arguments" of people who defend it, you probably could get an Amway recruitment pitch verbatim.

[Lightforged]

How can you compare that to buying tier pieces? That's the whole point, you get EoF by running raids, and by reward you get to buy an item....but in DKP you get rewarded with points that new comers do not get the chance to even spend, due to prioritizations and lack of DKP due to the ratio of long term grinders. Why should I need to put my time and effort for others, when I don't get anything out of it, purely because I cannot catch up to other longer members in the guild.

If you defend these systems, it's just you wanting to scam others of their time just for your gain.

[angrylol]

Lol.
I don't know how it's possible that you don't get to win a single piece of gear. I would recommend you join a guild where MS has priority and everything else is up to bids. There is no way that in some 1-2 months you would not start to deck yourself with gear.

Your impression is that "a raid" is a single separate "event", but with DKP it's something like "across all raids". Your contribution over all raids is rewarded and "a raid" is, lets say, not important. If you don't agree with that, why the hell are you going on how unfair it is. Just don't join such guilds.

It actually is quite like farming emblems, your overall merit is rewarded.

And btw, don't say I want to scam anyone. If you join a DKP guild, especially established one, then you don't get gear instantly - that's not a scam, it's just you being stupid.

[Lightforged]

1-2 months? You have to understand that just because you save up for those 2 months, it does not mean other who have been in the guild for much longer, just magically wait for you to catch up so you can bid...…that's not how it works. If you continuously save up, so do others who already are ahead of you, so yes you can grind your DKP and hope you will get an item in the next few months.. As I said in my post, this DKP really only applies to guilds who are quite popular, the competitivity would just make it almost impossible to catch up to, to win items.

But farming emblems, is completely different. See with EoF you get immediately after each boss kill yes, but the difference is, there is no competition for getting a tier piece item. Where as with DKP you have competition (other guild members) who have been grinding for much longer than you have, making it almost impossible for you to outbid them.

Here is an example with the DKP what I am trying to say:

This is John (new comer) 0 dkp
This is Bob (5 months in the guild) 10dkp

Both decide to join ICC raid and killed 1 boss, their dkp increases by 1, which means John now has 1 and Bob has 11.

Which just shows nothing has changed since Bob still plays....and 11 - 1 = 0

You are still at 0 DKP advantage over them, and they win the item, just because you have joined too late. Unless everyone decides to not join raids (meaning they dont get dkp) then you will just lose.

[angrylol]

Yes, it's a long term.

You forgot one little thing. Those who bid on items SPEND DKP. So you get ahead, you don't even need to have more DKP, there are limits to how much people are willing to bid. And in guild where people are so much ahead, there is a reason why - like Ohie said. 99% of the time you will bid against players like you, not those old farts who dont even need items anymore, hence they have a lot of unspent DKP(practically what you wanted, old core farmers slaving for you to get gear). Sounds like you joined a DKP guild, didn't get STS on your second week. Then left the guild all mad about it, made a topic.

Here is an example with the DKP what I am trying to say:

This is John (new comer) 0 dkp
This is Bob (5 months in the guild) 10dkp

Both decide to join ICC raid and killed 1 boss, their dkp increases by 1, which means John now has 1 and Bob has 11.

Which just shows nothing has changed since Bob still plays....and 11 - 1 = 0

You are still at 0 DKP advantage over them, and they win the item, just because you have joined too late. Unless everyone decides to not join raids (meaning they dont get dkp) then you will just lose.

Bob bid on an item for 11 DKP.
John(1 DKP) is now old veteran scammer ahead of Bob(0 DKP). Bob is now mad that John will get the next item, no matter what he does.

[Lightforged]

I have not been in a guild for like the past year, and left because I did not have time (I have been in DKP guilds with a high rank, I am not biased) but this brings me to another point, you are saying that BiS players are forced to play their mains, that is completely false, and if it is some how true then please link me your guild and let me see for myself, because that sounds like a cap. Why would players who put "time" into the guild be forced to play chars that don't get anything out of it. Sounds bs to me.

You are literally now creating the perfect guild to counter my arguments, no priority ranks, forced to play BiS characters (to not get items), its quite frankly bs to me. I have joined so so many high end guilds, with LoD etc...and all of them are plus/minus the same. Link your guild that you know so well, and let me see for myself :) if this is true then you are a one lucky person to have found such guild.

Besides who are you kidding about Bob bidding 11DKP if it's just them, hell no. He will bid 2DKP and win. Why waste so much for no reason.....if he is bidding against someone else, then that other person will have more DKP than John.

Link your guild, end of discussion :)