TBC Expectations

[veshextra]

Hi,

first and foremost, I am not expecting a (complete) feedback to this post but I assume the community would like to understand how certain things will be approached for TBC and would hope that some aspects are considered and taken into account ahead of time:

the majority of points focuses on differences between vanilla tbc and classic tbc - and the reduced length of phases on onyxia.
TBC brought many catch-up features and thus they are likely not supposed to be available straight away. yet, at the same time we have had QOL features enabled on Onyxia and lastly, Blizzard also approached some topics differently between vanilla TBC and classic TBC. Given multiple occurrences of "blizzlike", "not blizzlike", "fixed" and "not fixed yet", which led to some frustation, it would help to give some orientation (aka: vanilla tbc or classic tbc approach). The following points are an incomplete list of topics that may or may not arise and me but likely also the community would appreciate to get informed about:

• Both vanilla TBC and classic tbc had a pre-patch before being able to access outland. In vanilla, access to paladins and shamans was restricted, in classic, people could level before leveling got actually enabled. Both ways have their advantage, but clarity would be great.
• Vanilla TBC and Classic TBC used and changed the way arena points are calculated and at which rating arena teams start when created, multiple times. Given that the content phases are shorter on Onyxia, a moderate increase in arena point rates (maybe also honor rates if necessary) would be suitable. Further, to be taken into account: in vanilla tbc, pvp gear was considered more difficult to obtain because the amount of arena points earned was relatively low. in wotlk and classic Blizzard changed the approach to promote more participation and giving players the advantage to gear chars quicker - promoting equal competition.
• Given the shorter periods of content, it may also make sense to reduce profession cooldowns (e.g. tailor cloths) by a reasonable amount
• Primal Nethers and Primal Vortex started out on retail as bound on pickup and only got changed to not being soulbound any longer at a later part of the content. I guess its safe to assume we will have the same thing apply.
• Raid bosses only started dropping Badges of Justice very late into the expansion. Prior to (I think ZA release) they are only dropping in 5 player heroics.
• in a similar manner, initially, heroics required revered reputation keys and additionally, sometimes at least 1 person having the key specific for that dungeon (arca, shattered halls, shadow labs) - will the last point also apply to rdf?
• also caverns of time 1, which often does not require an pre-quest to queue via rdf, but should require the first quest to be completed (RP walk) afaik.
• Karazhan in a similar way had different stages, requiring everyone having the key, to 1 person only required and later to non required. Same way to be expected? (and Nightbane requiring 1 person having done the quest to summon him - compared to non required at a later point)
• Heroic dungeons give a lockout. on retail you could do heroics therefore only once a day. How will this work with the random dungeon queue from rdf after you have been locked to all dungeons. will it block you from running a random heroic or will you get into a new one besides already having an id?
• There are a few profession catchup crafts introduced that werent available on the early patches, e.g. the level 62 (but item level equivilent to t5) engineering goggles were introduced with BT patch 2.1 in vanilla - but were available from the start in classic (https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/skill=20...#recipes;q=350)
• in the same manner, the blue ilvl 115 pvp set available for reputation was introduced only later while there was still the honor version available straight away in vanilla. in classic both were available on release
• very early on in vanilla tbc, bosses dropped 1 token only, briefly after increased to 2 tokens. very late into the expansion, this was increased to 3. Given the shorter phases, directly starting with 2 tokens - or potentially 3 - may be reasonable
• classic tbc introduced some hyperspawns with mobs practically respawning every few seconds on highly contested places. will this be backported?
• similar to vanilla content, tbc will feature a few limited stock recipes. on classic, this was usually not too much of an concern because of phasing. on Onyxia, we already saw that this promoted bots and campers during the vanilla content contesting the limited stock recipes. Any plans to alter limited stock recipes?
• on the note of progression: there is e.g. also a set of things that was bound to patches on the initial release and to content instead during classic - would be good to know the general approach
• will we see the level 70 versions of eventbosses like Summerfest, Halloween and Brewfest including their level 70 loot?
• there are more points like timing of honor / arena point resets - MMR or teamrating only - that surely come up during the PTR phase, too

additional points for tbc can still be thrown into the room already but focus should be on the first part of tbc obviously

[LautyLomb]

[*]Both vanilla TBC and classic tbc had a pre-patch before being able to access outland. In vanilla, access to paladins and shamans was restricted, in classic, people could level before leveling got actually enabled. Both ways have their advantage, but clarity would be great.

I'm curious about this too, a way to lvl up any race/class before TBC release would be nice, maybe on the TBC PTR or a few weeks before the full release. We'll see

[Butkus]

TBC wows peak/prime!

my big ask for TBC? please add in rated battle grounds for TBC! add incentives for rbgs maybe updated gear? anything to get people to run them as most usually go 2v2 arena since its easier to get 2 people then it is 10. add in challenge mode so groups/guilds can 10vs10 rbg each other.


add rbgs to classic V as well!

[Skytower]

Also, please update us on time-line!

[Santori]

Hi,

first and foremost, I am not expecting a (complete) feedback to this post but I assume the community would like to understand how certain things will be approached for TBC and would hope that some aspects are considered and taken into account ahead of time:

the majority of points focuses on differences between vanilla tbc and classic tbc - and the reduced length of phases on onyxia.
TBC brought many catch-up features and thus they are likely not supposed to be available straight away. yet, at the same time we have had QOL features enabled on Onyxia and lastly, Blizzard also approached some topics differently between vanilla TBC and classic TBC. Given multiple occurrences of "blizzlike", "not blizzlike", "fixed" and "not fixed yet", which led to some frustation, it would help to give some orientation (aka: vanilla tbc or classic tbc approach). The following points are an incomplete list of topics that may or may not arise and me but likely also the community would appreciate to get informed about:

• Both vanilla TBC and classic tbc had a pre-patch before being able to access outland. In vanilla, access to paladins and shamans was restricted, in classic, people could level before leveling got actually enabled. Both ways have their advantage, but clarity would be great.
• Vanilla TBC and Classic TBC used and changed the way arena points are calculated and at which rating arena teams start when created, multiple times. Given that the content phases are shorter on Onyxia, a moderate increase in arena point rates (maybe also honor rates if necessary) would be suitable. Further, to be taken into account: in vanilla tbc, pvp gear was considered more difficult to obtain because the amount of arena points earned was relatively low. in wotlk and classic Blizzard changed the approach to promote more participation and giving players the advantage to gear chars quicker - promoting equal competition.
• Given the shorter periods of content, it may also make sense to reduce profession cooldowns (e.g. tailor cloths) by a reasonable amount
• Primal Nethers and Primal Vortex started out on retail as bound on pickup and only got changed to not being soulbound any longer at a later part of the content. I guess its safe to assume we will have the same thing apply.
• Raid bosses only started dropping Badges of Justice very late into the expansion. Prior to (I think ZA release) they are only dropping in 5 player heroics.
• in a similar manner, initially, heroics required revered reputation keys and additionally, sometimes at least 1 person having the key specific for that dungeon (arca, shattered halls, shadow labs) - will the last point also apply to rdf?
• also caverns of time 1, which often does not require an pre-quest to queue via rdf, but should require the first quest to be completed (RP walk) afaik.
• Karazhan in a similar way had different stages, requiring everyone having the key, to 1 person only required and later to non required. Same way to be expected? (and Nightbane requiring 1 person having done the quest to summon him - compared to non required at a later point)
• Heroic dungeons give a lockout. on retail you could do heroics therefore only once a day. How will this work with the random dungeon queue from rdf after you have been locked to all dungeons. will it block you from running a random heroic or will you get into a new one besides already having an id?
• There are a few profession catchup crafts introduced that werent available on the early patches, e.g. the level 62 (but item level equivilent to t5) engineering goggles were introduced with BT patch 2.1 in vanilla - but were available from the start in classic (https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/skill=20...#recipes;q=350)
• in the same manner, the blue ilvl 115 pvp set available for reputation was introduced only later while there was still the honor version available straight away in vanilla. in classic both were available on release
• very early on in vanilla tbc, bosses dropped 1 token only, briefly after increased to 2 tokens. very late into the expansion, this was increased to 3. Given the shorter phases, directly starting with 2 tokens - or potentially 3 - may be reasonable
• classic tbc introduced some hyperspawns with mobs practically respawning every few seconds on highly contested places. will this be backported?
• similar to vanilla content, tbc will feature a few limited stock recipes. on classic, this was usually not too much of an concern because of phasing. on Onyxia, we already saw that this promoted bots and campers during the vanilla content contesting the limited stock recipes. Any plans to alter limited stock recipes?
• on the note of progression: there is e.g. also a set of things that was bound to patches on the initial release and to content instead during classic - would be good to know the general approach
• will we see the level 70 versions of eventbosses like Summerfest, Halloween and Brewfest including their level 70 loot?
• there are more points like timing of honor / arena point resets - MMR or teamrating only - that surely come up during the PTR phase, too

additional points for tbc can still be thrown into the room already but focus should be on the first part of tbc obviously

The only post worth reading across Onyxia section in the last few months.

+1 for staff to keep this in mind

[veshextra]

The only post worth reading across Onyxia section in the last few months.

+1 for staff to keep this in mind

thanks - i just hope to get some acknowledgement by the staff so that we avoid a few pitfalls

[sandelf]

It is confusing when you keep saying “vanilla” for both the original version of the game (the common meaning of vanilla) and to original TBC expansion, even in the same sentence.

Classic is an edition brand for re-made old WoW versions. So, you can just say tbc vs classic, or tbc vs classic tbc (ctbc?).

Back to the topic:
[*] Faction Balancing: will there be any attempt for faction balancing at all? Vanilla servers can be slightly Alliance-heavy, or post-Classic, slightly Horde-heavy, but stock TBC servers are **always** moderately to extremely Horde-heavy![*] Non-AV Health: will there be incentives to do non-AV battlegrounds? Because without it, the same unfortunate queuing outcomes that often occur in vanilla, are even more impactful on a TBC server without such incentives[*] Outland Level: what level will you be able to enter Outland itself? For example, are there (level) restrictions on portals or summons? There were none in TBC or Classic, afaik, but private servers can be different[*] Patches or Phases: will the content progression, especially raids, be TBC-like with most early content all upfront or will it be parcelled into phases like in Classic?[*] Magtheridon Ghosted: will Magtheridon have any forwarded loot changes because without it, other than the initial wave of realm firsts, it will likely be an entire raid ghosted by pugs and casuals for much of the expansion’s life[*] Endgame Feeder: to re-iterate, the issue of heroic reputation requirements and especially keys is **huge**. It completely changes the landscape, content and even lifetime of a TBC private server, if/how tweaks are made here. For example, with standard TBC there remains for a long time a healthy number of players doing Normal dungeons both before 70 and after 70 which keeps healthy shuffling new players into the endgame heroics and raids. Short-circuiting any of this can create a big gap between new players and raid-ready players which hurts guild recruitment because every new entrant would require more gear carry or there would simply be much less raid-ready players in total, which can cause raid-logging or failed raids for casuals, and painful recruitment for stacked classes in serious guilds. The end result is contributing to the raiding player pool just bleeding away, even without tuned raids, as well as simply less for players to do …[*] Paladin Seals: somewhat related to Faction Balancing, but also not an insignificant issue in both PvP and PvE, will Paladins get access to equal Seals, regardless of factions?

[sandelf]

It is confusing when you keep saying “vanilla” for both the original version of the game (the common meaning of vanilla) and to original TBC expansion, even in the same sentence.

Classic is an edition brand for re-made old WoW versions. So, you can just say tbc vs classic, or tbc vs classic tbc (ctbc?).

Back to the topic:

• Faction Balancing: will there be any attempt for faction balancing at all? Vanilla servers can be slightly Alliance-heavy, or post-Classic, slightly Horde-heavy, but stock TBC servers are **always** moderately to extremely Horde-heavy!
• Non-AV Health: will there be incentives to do non-AV battlegrounds? Because without it, the same unfortunate queuing outcomes that often occur in vanilla, are even more impactful on a TBC server without such incentives
• Outland Level: what level will you be able to enter Outland itself? For example, are there (level) restrictions on portals or summons? There were none in TBC or Classic, afaik, but private servers can be different
• Patches or Phases: will the content progression, especially raids, be TBC-like with most early content all upfront or will it be parcelled into phases like in Classic?
• Magtheridon Ghosted: will Magtheridon have any forwarded loot changes because without it, other than the initial wave of realm firsts, it will likely be an entire raid ghosted by pugs and casuals for much of the expansion’s life
• Endgame Feeder: to re-iterate, the issue of heroic reputation requirements and especially keys is **huge**. It completely changes the landscape, content and even lifetime of a TBC private server, if/how tweaks are made here. For example, with standard TBC there remains for a long time a healthy number of players doing Normal dungeons both before 70 and after 70 which keeps healthy shuffling new players into the endgame heroics and raids. Short-circuiting any of this can create a big gap between new players and raid-ready players which hurts guild recruitment because every new entrant would require more gear carry or there would simply be much less raid-ready players in total, which can cause raid-logging or failed raids for casuals, and painful recruitment for stacked classes in serious guilds. The end result is contributing to the raiding player pool just bleeding away, even without tuned raids, as well as simply less for players to do …
• Paladin Seals: somewhat related to Faction Balancing, but also not an insignificant issue in both PvP and PvE, will Paladins get access to equal Seals, regardless of factions?

[veshextra]

It is confusing when you keep saying “vanilla” for both the original version of the game (the common meaning of vanilla) and to original TBC expansion, even in the same sentence.

the post is about tbc (as seen from the title). the prefix vanilla has the same meaning as "original". it shouldnt be too confusing even for non-native speakers

and regarding your points:

BGs will be required to be played because pvp items, especially the offpieces will require honor AND tokens to be bought

The portal to blasted lands traditionally has had a level restriction. The portal to outlands not

initial magtheridon loot definitely was "stale". I would also suggest the later additions to be included from the get go.

[OhieMitzen]

the post is about tbc (as seen from the title). the prefix vanilla has the same meaning as "original". it shouldnt be too confusing even for non-native speakers

"Vanilla" = WoW's vanilla 1-60 experience.
"Classic" = The new (ruined) versions of older WoW expansions.
"Retail [version]" = The game versions when they 1st came out.

[sandelf]

The portal to blasted lands traditionally has had a level restriction. The portal to outlands not

There is no portal to Blasted Lands, if the intent is to mirror TBC you have to walk there. The portal was added in middle of WotLK.
Given the unusual 3.3.5a client used on Onyxia, I guess that could be added as another query in this TBC Expectations list too, as a QoL item.

[XaenorLok]

Hi,

first and foremost, I am not expecting a (complete) feedback to this post but I assume the community would like to understand how certain things will be approached for TBC and would hope that some aspects are considered and taken into account ahead of time:

the majority of points focuses on differences between vanilla tbc and classic tbc - and the reduced length of phases on onyxia.
TBC brought many catch-up features and thus they are likely not supposed to be available straight away. yet, at the same time we have had QOL features enabled on Onyxia and lastly, Blizzard also approached some topics differently between vanilla TBC and classic TBC. Given multiple occurrences of "blizzlike", "not blizzlike", "fixed" and "not fixed yet", which led to some frustation, it would help to give some orientation (aka: vanilla tbc or classic tbc approach). The following points are an incomplete list of topics that may or may not arise and me but likely also the community would appreciate to get informed about:

• Both vanilla TBC and classic tbc had a pre-patch before being able to access outland. In vanilla, access to paladins and shamans was restricted, in classic, people could level before leveling got actually enabled. Both ways have their advantage, but clarity would be great.
• Vanilla TBC and Classic TBC used and changed the way arena points are calculated and at which rating arena teams start when created, multiple times. Given that the content phases are shorter on Onyxia, a moderate increase in arena point rates (maybe also honor rates if necessary) would be suitable. Further, to be taken into account: in vanilla tbc, pvp gear was considered more difficult to obtain because the amount of arena points earned was relatively low. in wotlk and classic Blizzard changed the approach to promote more participation and giving players the advantage to gear chars quicker - promoting equal competition.
• Given the shorter periods of content, it may also make sense to reduce profession cooldowns (e.g. tailor cloths) by a reasonable amount
• Primal Nethers and Primal Vortex started out on retail as bound on pickup and only got changed to not being soulbound any longer at a later part of the content. I guess its safe to assume we will have the same thing apply.
• Raid bosses only started dropping Badges of Justice very late into the expansion. Prior to (I think ZA release) they are only dropping in 5 player heroics.
• in a similar manner, initially, heroics required revered reputation keys and additionally, sometimes at least 1 person having the key specific for that dungeon (arca, shattered halls, shadow labs) - will the last point also apply to rdf?
• also caverns of time 1, which often does not require an pre-quest to queue via rdf, but should require the first quest to be completed (RP walk) afaik.
• Karazhan in a similar way had different stages, requiring everyone having the key, to 1 person only required and later to non required. Same way to be expected? (and Nightbane requiring 1 person having done the quest to summon him - compared to non required at a later point)
• Heroic dungeons give a lockout. on retail you could do heroics therefore only once a day. How will this work with the random dungeon queue from rdf after you have been locked to all dungeons. will it block you from running a random heroic or will you get into a new one besides already having an id?
• There are a few profession catchup crafts introduced that werent available on the early patches, e.g. the level 62 (but item level equivilent to t5) engineering goggles were introduced with BT patch 2.1 in vanilla - but were available from the start in classic (https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/skill=20...#recipes;q=350)
• in the same manner, the blue ilvl 115 pvp set available for reputation was introduced only later while there was still the honor version available straight away in vanilla. in classic both were available on release
• very early on in vanilla tbc, bosses dropped 1 token only, briefly after increased to 2 tokens. very late into the expansion, this was increased to 3. Given the shorter phases, directly starting with 2 tokens - or potentially 3 - may be reasonable
• classic tbc introduced some hyperspawns with mobs practically respawning every few seconds on highly contested places. will this be backported?
• similar to vanilla content, tbc will feature a few limited stock recipes. on classic, this was usually not too much of an concern because of phasing. on Onyxia, we already saw that this promoted bots and campers during the vanilla content contesting the limited stock recipes. Any plans to alter limited stock recipes?
• on the note of progression: there is e.g. also a set of things that was bound to patches on the initial release and to content instead during classic - would be good to know the general approach
• will we see the level 70 versions of eventbosses like Summerfest, Halloween and Brewfest including their level 70 loot?
• there are more points like timing of honor / arena point resets - MMR or teamrating only - that surely come up during the PTR phase, too

additional points for tbc can still be thrown into the room already but focus should be on the first part of tbc obviously

Dear Warmane staff, I really hope you are taking this message into account because this is a goldmine. Many thanks to you veshextra for pointing out all those things.

Also dear Warmane staff, you have improved lately on communication, keep it up please and give us informations of how your work is going on TBC.
Many thanks !

[Silleen]

My guess is we will get most of the information needed before TBC pre patch releases. Right now I think (and hope) devs are 110% focused on Naxxramas.

[Neveziah]

Very nice post!

Some of additional questions:
How will drums work? As a feral druid I'd love to see the later version of drums since the first ones can't even be used while shape shifted.

Will there be a pre patch where we can level Shammy / Pala, and will Alliance Paladins have Seal of Blood/Martyr?

[GordoFacha]

Just keeping this "upvoted"