WotLK [Guide] Combat PvE

[taralej]

Updated the 21 to 26 Expertise. The rest however I leave open for discussion.

[verminslayer]

That guide is a bit silly. The 4x T10 build is lame as hell too much rng for the extra 3 CP. Expertise should be 26/26 not 21/21. Also your builds yields ~7-8% hit and that's low as fk. I don't understand why 99% rogues are goin that low hit rating build, when you can go a build like mine http://armory.warmane.com/character/...gnaros/profile

More hit --> less missed auto attacks, more energy return from talents, more hack and slash hits, more poison hits = more damage
So the question is the ~2% more crit and 13% chance of gettin 3 extra CP from 4x T10 worth the 15-20% average miss rate on boss fights instead of 5-10% miss rate? I wouldn't say so.

Also low rupture rotation --> full eviscerate when you got a bear/cat/arms warr in the raid.

U forgot to mention best professions for rogues.
JC + Engi
JC + Tailor
Tailor + Engi 400 AP for 15 sec every 1 min and 360 haste every 1 min for 12 sec


New roggirs should 1st go for the Expertise cap then 9-10% hit rating(w/o talents) followed by ARP cap and in the end getting more AP, crit and haste.

I also see a lot of rogues failing the damn easy rotation.

It should be like this:
**Low rupture rotation:
PreTotT + preHaste pot on the other rogue(if no roggir put it on a tank) -> Sinister Strike till you get 2 combo points--> SnD --> KS + engi hands/racial(if you have)--> 2 Sinister-- > Adre rush + BF(can be saved for adds on bosses like dbs,rotface,lich king for more damage)-> 3x SS --> Rupture --> Sinister strike till 5 --> if you have ~10 sec left on SnD go for Eviscerate else SnD --> 5 CP Rupture --> 4 CP SnD ---> if ~10 sec of SnD go for eviscerate else SnD. Use TotT, Adre rush, BF, KS and other DPS abilities on every cooldown

So in my case it is like this:
PreTotT on the 2nd rogue or tank + preHastepot--> 2 CP --> SnD --> Orc racial + engi hands + Killing Spree --> 2 SS --> Adre Rush + Blade Flurry --> 5 CP Rupture --> 5 CP Eviscerate --> 4 CP SnD --> TotT on CD --> 5 CP Rupture ---> ~10 sec SnD ? --> 5 CP Eviscerate else 4 CP SnD ---> repeat

**Full eviscerate rotation
Same as above except that you replace all ruptures with eviscerates


Additional notes:
For rogues who have less than 1.2k ARP should use Envenom instead of Eviscerate. Yes it drains deadly poison stacks but you get them up fast enuf w/o any dps loss

how much dps do you pull?

[taralej]

Alright, so I'm gonna break down some of the major point from your post. First off, I didn't forget about professions - I intentionally didn't mention them as 1) they're straightforward; 2) they're not gamebreaking. It's WotLK - everybody knows that Tailor + Engi award the highest DPS, while JC + BS - the highest passive stats.

People go for as high as the hit cap because that's just the BiS you can get; the maximum you can squeeze from your Rogue - the rest is just gimping yourself. Go for 1400 ArP and then you should put the extra gems into Hit. But until then ArP > Hit post-cap. I guess I should clarify this in the guide, thank you.

Going Envenom over Eviscerate was only viable some 4 years ago when Eviscerate didn't scale from AP on Molten. Poisons are a substantial part of a Rogue's DPS, even for Combat. So you can't just wind up telling people to use Envenom as Combat pre-ArP cap, because that would be plain wrong. Check it, test it and you'll see for yourself. Or you can also read the first couple of pages in this thread back when Eviscerate was broken and I was suggesting the same thing as you are now.

[Fluffybully]

I did test it :).

Anyway @verminslayer
marrowgar
festergut
LK

DPS depends on RNG(crits,talent procs...) it can be from 16k to 24k

[taralej]

The Recount you're posting is from using a full Evisc rotation, I believe? At BiS gear it would make no sense to be otherwise.

I updated the guide, adding Gems & Professions to it. I also summed the Hit% from the BiS list and it's 6.04%, which combined with the 5% from Precision totals 11.04%, which is actually a very healthy percentage for Combat. Still, I agree with you that beyond 1400 ArP it is viable to gem for Hit in yellow sockets.

[Selaya]

What`s with the 26 Expertise claims?!
Physical Hit cap has been corrected (to 8%). Parries have been introduced (when attacking the boss`s front). Dodge Expertise cap _has not_ been corrected.
It`s still 21. Stop spreading false information.

[Fluffybully]

No I'm using low rupture rotation.

@Selaya
Care to explain why am I getting dodges then when I've got less than 26 expertise?

[taralej]

Dodge Expertise cap _has not_ been corrected.
It`s still 21.

Wait, what? I thought that was fixed months ago.

[Selaya]

These dodges are from trash mobs I`d assume. They`re bugged, iirc. I just checked my boss recount, and I didn`t see any dodges with my 22 Expertise setup. It`s on a Ret, but this should be universally applicable, shouldn`t it?

And they never fixed it. They only fixed Parries and the TBC Melee Hit rating.

[Fluffybully]

No I reset recount and skadda each time before a boss fight. And ye I was gettin dodges on bosses before I had 26/26 expertise.

[Abra]

The cap is still at 24, on Ragnaros and Deathwing at least. If you do enough runs you will see an odd dodge here and there with 21-23.

[Selaya]

Hm. I`ve done some quite extensive series of tests (1000+ hits) on the Acherus dummy before (kinda dated, half a year at the very least I`d say), and 22 was definitely the cold hard cap where dodges would not occur anymore within those 1k or so hits. 1k hits` quite a bit of certainty, probability theory wise, I`d say.

[pocketsgold]

anybody have a comparison of 2x havoc hc vs the usual havoc hc/scourgeborn hc?

not looking for a lecture about weapon speeds.

just wanna know if anyone has data on the average dps difference.

again, actual data. from molten. not just anecdotal accounts like.. "oh well i read somewhere.."

thanks.

[Abra]

anybody have a comparison of 2x havoc hc vs the usual havoc hc/scourgeborn hc?

not looking for a lecture about weapon speeds.

just wanna know if anyone has data on the average dps difference.

again, actual data. from molten. not just anecdotal accounts like.. "oh well i read somewhere.."

thanks.

Haven't done tests with 2hc havocs (because there are still plenty of people in the guild after those), but I have played around with http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50710, and it is a definite decrease in dps compared to using http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50621 as the OH.

[verminslayer]

hey fluffybully, that is really great dps, im going to try it out, i do about 1-2k dps by the end on some of those fights. ive never tried rupture before.
also your talents, i see that you dont have vile poisons, is it actually better to go 5/5 improved over 1 point in it?